[3.5] Good ways to make an unseen seer.

[FuryOfMetal]

I'm toying around with an unseen seer build for a game but I'm not very good at juggling requirements and entry levels etc. It'll be a thief type and I'd rather base myself around illusions spells (to be outlined in a moment.) So what i really need it good ways to enter, good ideas, a simple progression level for a basis and any weaknesses or roles I need to consider.

As I mentioned I'd like to be illusion based, replacing the divination features with an illusion magic version etc. This is because using illusions would be far mroe fun and useful than divinations for a thiefy type character.

[Greenish]

This is because using illusions would be far mroe fun and useful than divinations for a thiefy type character.

It's not like you're forced to choose one or the other.

Beguiler is sort of a sorcerer focused on Illusion and Enchantment with a smattering of other spells. A straight one might fit your thief just as well, if not better, than an unseen seer variant.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I agree with Greenish, Unseen seers have (IMO) a more assasin vibe, than an thief vibe.

But if you want to go with an unseen seer build, the gold standard is

Rogue 1/Wiz 5*/Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster or Spellwarp Sniper 4

Use Practiced Spellcaster to off-set the CL loss due Rogue 1 and divination spell power. Also the first spell you should get for Expanded Knowledge is Hunter's Eye (Ranger... I think in PH II) for +1d6 Sneak attack / 3 CL.

*For Spontaneous Divination ACF, now you can use any divination when you want/need it.

[Greenish]

*For Spontaneous Divination ACF, now you can use any divination when you want/need it.

Errata'ed to any divination in your spellbook, I believe.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'll have to check it, even on that case I believe it is worth it, for example let say you prepared Gravestrike thinking you were going to fight undead, but your DM decided to throw a curveball at you and decided to send in plants? With spontaneous divination you can change it Vinestrike.

[Godless_Paladin]

I'm toying around with an unseen seer build for a game but I'm not very good at juggling requirements and entry levels etc. It'll be a thief type and I'd rather base myself around illusions spells (to be outlined in a moment.) So what i really need it good ways to enter, good ideas, a simple progression level for a basis and any weaknesses or roles I need to consider.

Ah, the Unseen Seer. Good times! One thing I highly advise is taking full advantage of your FAMILIAR. Note that your familiar shares your buffs, and all of your skill ranks. See if you can get one that can UMD, and you're good. Also, make sure to take a look at the spell in the Spell Compendium that lets your familiar cast spells of up to 5th level as if he were you. Seriously, your familiar can be like a second rogue in the party, complete with some serious sneak attack damage on his spells.

That said, things to look out for include choice spells you can sneak attack with, ways to increase the number of such spells you can cast, and things that buff your sneak attack. As well as, of course, all around skillmonkeying, divining, and general utility! Good choices include things like Light of Lunia (at level 1, that's a handy 5d6 damage to a target, 9d6 to an outsider. Since it's a buff it's basically doubled by sharing it to your familiar) and Cloud of Knives (a free attack that you can add sneak damage to. Share it with your familiar to get it twice).

Look in PHB II for a spell called Hunter's Eye. This is a solid divination spell you probably want to grab with your extended learning. Hunter's Eye provides a bonus to your sneak attack (and your familiar's) equal to your +1d6 per CL/3. Take advantage of your options to increase your caster level, and that's a good deal.

As I mentioned I'd like to be illusion based, replacing the divination features with an illusion magic version etc.

However, if you like illusions instead of stabbity rays and divination, I wonder why you don't just play a Beguiler

[true_shinken]

I like Scout/Dragon Devotee/Unseen Seer. More skirmish damage than a straight Scout.
I also enjoy levels in Paladin of Freedom to get turn undead to fuel Travel Devotion in such a build.

[FuryOfMetal]

Ah i forgot some key divination spells i see. Also i forgot/didn't think that practiced spellcaster would offset the divination spell power lost CL. Are there any familiars that could use UMD without me having to take Improved Familiar? That'd save on a feat, even though i do love having access to cooler familiars.

Another idea i thought of would be to get a reserve feat to get me a constant touch attack spell effect that i could use sneak attack with.

Where is Light of Lunia? That sounds very good for a level 1 spell! The Spontaneous Divination ACF sounds like a solid investment. Any other good feats or ACF's to consider?

[Gabe the Bard]

Beguiler 3 / Spellthief 2 is a pretty fun build, and makes a decent skillmonkey as well. However, it's two caster levels behind the Rogue 1 / Wizard 5 option. If you're interested in trapfinding, though, you'll probably have to be human and take Able Learner at first level, since Unseen Seer doesn't have disable device as a class skill.

Don't underestimate the power of divinations. Especially for a sneaky character, getting enough information on your opponents so you can get the drop on them can be highly useful. A Rogue (or Spellthief) 1 / Diviner 5 could be fun as well. You could take improved initiative and insightful divination for a really high initiative bonus.

[Eldariel]

though, you'll probably have to be human and take Able Learner at first level, since Unseen Seer doesn't have disable device as a class skill.

6+Int skill points on an Int-based caster is generally enough to pay the 2x points for cross-classing it if it's the only skill you'll CC. That said, Rogue list is great and I'd personally want access to it in its entirety and for that, Able Learner is the way to go. Of course, I'd ask for the DM to allow it regardless of race 'cause otherwise it's way too constricting and only boosts the best race further.

[FuryOfMetal]

I didn't think about beguiler actually, i was too blinded by the power of the wizard. I think beguiler would actually be a far more fitting and useful option as it gets CLASS FEATURES in those first levels, mainly armored mage which i was looking to pick up from somewhere. But why 2 spellthief levels? Surely it'd slow down my entry, but steal spell effect would be very nice. Also can i use the 0 and 1st level spells i steal to fuel my own spells? Or is that only for spellthief spells?

[Eldariel]

I didn't think about beguiler actually, i was too blinded by the power of the wizard. I think beguiler would actually be a far more fitting and useful option as it gets CLASS FEATURES in those first levels, mainly armored mage which i was looking to pick up from somewhere. But why 2 spellthief levels? Surely it'd slow down my entry, but steal spell effect would be very nice. Also can i use the 0 and 1st level spells i steal to fuel my own spells? Or is that only for spellthief spells?

Actually, Beguiler's abilities are fairly wasteful as, y'know, you're going into a prestige class. If you were going straight Beguiler, they would weigh in more, but stopping at 4-5 levels means the Spontaneous Divination you get from Wizard outweighs Beguiler's abilities easily. It's basically a trade-off of 16 skill points vs. an extra level of casting and access to all spell schools.

Spellthief replacing the Rogue-level is viable with the Master Spellthief feat [CScoundrel]; just do note that Master Spellthief doesn't increase the level of spells you can store. In other words, you can steal them but you are quite restricted in that regard. I personally prefer Rogue for the extra skill points on the first level, given Master Spellthief doesn't obviate the need for Practiced Spellcaster to counteract Divination Spell Power and as such, basically just costs you a feat for the ability to use light armor.


But yeah, I suggest either:
Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer -> getting Wizard 5 for Spontaneous Divination [Complete Champion] at some point OR Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer -> with the same conditions also picking up Master Spellthief at some point.

[Godless_Paladin]

I didn't think about beguiler actually, i was too blinded by the power of the wizard. I think beguiler would actually be a far more fitting and useful option as it gets CLASS FEATURES in those first levels, mainly armored mage which i was looking to pick up from somewhere. But why 2 spellthief levels? Surely it'd slow down my entry, but steal spell effect would be very nice. Also can i use the 0 and 1st level spells i steal to fuel my own spells? Or is that only for spellthief spells?

As I said, if illusion and enchantment is your style, you simply can't go wrong with the Beguiler. It's one of the best straight up packages in the game, with no real need for optimization in order to be very potent. That said, make yourself a ghost. Take stuff like Darkstalker, Ring of the Darkhidden, Mobile Spellcasting, and Improved Diversion and most foes will have a very difficult time locating you even in the middle of a combat, and even against things with blindsight, blindsense, tremorsense, and so forth. Heck, in one of the campaigns I'm in right now, we can't ever seem to find the party Beguiler. In a party where everyone has Hide/Move Silently, he's a ghost amongst ghosts!

Unseen Seer is more if you like making all kinds of magical laser sneak attacks and have a thing for divination. Both are fine routes for creating a wizardly scoundrel, and which you take is a matter of which schools you enjoy more. If the answer is "Enchantment and Illusion" then Beguiler is what you want. You don't need to even bother with prestige classes or anything.

[Urpriest]

Master Spellthief doesn't obviate the need for Practiced Spellcaster to counteract Divination Spell Power and as such, basically just costs you a feat for the ability to use light armor.

How do you figure that? Master Spellthief bases your caster level on your levels in spellcasting classes, ignoring your actual caster level. The whole point of it in such a build is to behave like Practiced Spellcaster.

[Eldariel]

How do you figure that? Master Spellthief bases your caster level on your levels in spellcasting classes, ignoring your actual caster level. The whole point of it in such a build is to behave like Practiced Spellcaster.

The functional line simply makes the levels stack for purposes of determining your caster level. In other words, Spellthief 1/Wizard 4 would function as Wizard 5 and Spellthief 5 respectively, caster level wise. It does not somehow magically stop all other modifiers.

[Urpriest]

The functional line simply makes the levels stack for purposes of determining your caster level. In other words, Spellthief 1/Wizard 4 would function as Wizard 5 and Spellthief 5 respectively, caster level wise. It does not somehow magically stop all other modifiers.

If it were intended to do that, I would argue that it would function off of caster level rather than class level.

Regardless, this is a contentious topic and it's disingenuous to assert one side or another to an inexperienced poster.

Suffice it to say that using Master Spellthief as a substitute for Practiced Spellcaster is mildly cheesy and has decent arguments against it, but as essentially all it does is save you a feat it's not particularly high on the totem pole of cheese. So use at your own discretion.

[FuryOfMetal]

So I think that having wizard 4 or 5/spellthief 1 would be best. Choosing wizard I get access to all spell school, though I may specialise in illusion anyway (ontop of being a gnome). Is there any way i could pick up armored spellcaster (apart from the terrible fighter ACF)? Or should I use a rod of extend for mage armor...Questions!

I'm going to take the Acid Splatter reserve feat for a touch attack stronger than normal weapon damage that i can apply sneak attack to. I figure having one touch attack with SA dice will be more beneficial than deminishing returns iterives or the TWF chain. Any criticisms to this standpoint? I can always take Craven anyway.

[Urpriest]

So I think that having wizard 4 or 5/spellthief 1 would be best. Choosing wizard I get access to all spell school, though I may specialise in illusion anyway (ontop of being a gnome). Is there any way i could pick up armored spellcaster (apart from the terrible fighter ACF)? Or should I use a rod of extend for mage armor...Questions!

I'm going to take the Acid Splatter reserve feat for a touch attack stronger than normal weapon damage that i can apply sneak attack to. I figure having one touch attack with SA dice will be more beneficial than deminishing returns iterives or the TWF chain. Any criticisms to this standpoint? I can always take Craven anyway.

One minor point, which you've probably though of anyway: take Spelltheif or Rogue as your first level for the bonus skill points.

[FuryOfMetal]

Yeah i intended to, but hide and search are CC for wizard so I'll probably have to take it later on to meet the 8 ranks..

[Fax Celestis]

The functional line simply makes the levels stack for purposes of determining your caster level. In other words, Spellthief 1/Wizard 4 would function as Wizard 5 and Spellthief 5 respectively, caster level wise. It does not somehow magically stop all other modifiers.

Effects are applied in the order most beneficial to the player. In particular:

Does the bonus to caster level from the Practiced Spellcaster feat (from CAr and CD) apply before or after other caster level bonuses (such as those from the Good or Healing domains)?

The bonus from Practiced Spellcaster applies whenever it would be most beneficial to the caster. A 4th-level cleric/4th-level fighter with the Healing domain and Practiced Spellcaster would cast Conjuration (Healing) spells as a 9th-level caster (base caster level 4th, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster, +1 from the Healing domain). A 4th-level cleric/4th-level rogue with Practiced Spellcaster who activates a bead of karma (from a strand of prayer beads) would cast her spells as a 12th-level caster (base 4, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster, +4 from bead of karma).

How does Practiced Spellcaster interact with the wild magic class feature of the wild mage (from CAr)?

The –3 penalty and +1d6 bonus to the wild mage’s caster level are applied as a single step in the process of determining the wild mage’s caster level. Since Practiced Spellcaster’s bonus is always applied when it is most beneficial to the character (see previous answer), a wild mage with Practiced Spellcaster would typically apply the wild magic class feature first (subtracting 3 and adding 1d6 to her caster level) and then add the Practiced Spellcaster benefit, up to a maximum value equal to her character level.

For example, if a 5th-level wizard/4th-level wild mage with Practiced Spellcaster rolled a 1 on the 1d6 bonus to her caster level, her caster level for that spell would be 9th (base 9th, –3 from wild magic penalty, +1 from Wild magic bonus, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster up to a maximum equal to her character level). If she rolled a 6, her caster level would be 12th (base 9th, –3 from wild magic penalty, +6 from wild magic bonus; the Practiced Spellcaster bonus would not apply since it would increase her caster level above her character level).

On the other hand, imagine a wild mage whose caster level (before applying the effects of the wild magic class feature) is less than her character level, such as a wild mage with levels of rogue or other non-spellcasting class. She might well choose to apply the Practiced Spellcaster bonus first, before applying the wild magic modifiers. A rogue 4/wizard 5/wild mage 4 would have a base caster level of 9th before any other modifiers are applied. Adding Practiced Spellcaster’s bonus would increase this to 13th, at which point the penalty and bonus from wild magic would be applied. The Sage recommends that players averse to frequently recalculating caster level avoid playing a character with this combination, as it is likely to cause headaches.

When do “add-on” effects such as poison occur? For example, if an assassin delivers a death attack with a weapon bearing wyvern poison, does the poison take effect first, thus potentially reducing the target’s Fortitude save against the death attack?

As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the “controller” of the effect. In this case, the assassin is the “controller” of both the poison and the death attack, so he’d most likely choose for the poison to take effect first, and then the death attack.

[Greenish]

Is there any way i could pick up armored spellcaster (apart from the terrible fighter ACF)? Or should I use a rod of extend for mage armor...Questions!

Master Spellthief allows you to ignore ASF of light armours, but aside from the lowest levels, your spells should be enough to protect you. Mage Armour is ok, but look into miss chances (Blur/Blink, Mirror Image) and things that'll prevent you from getting hit in the first place (flight, invisibility and the like).

[Urpriest]

Yeah i intended to, but hide and search are CC for wizard so I'll probably have to take it later on to meet the 8 ranks..

Just checking, you're aware that your max ranks are level+3 as long as any of your classes have the skill, right?

Given an int-based caster, even 2+Int will allow you to keep the relevant skills maxed while paying double.

[FuryOfMetal]

Urpriest: Doh! This is why i aksed for help in the first place

Greenish: Master Spellthief isn;'t in CAdv, atleast not that i can see. What book is it in?

Fax: Thanks for finding the relevant rulings on feats and such. I knew that you could apply things in the beneficial order, just didn't know where it said that.

So from what you've all said Master Spellthief is a combination of armored mage (light) and practiced spellcaster for both spellthief and another chosen caster class. Of course when i actually read the feat it'll become apparent but I can't find it right now.

[Greenish]

Greenish: Master Spellthief isn;'t in CAdv, atleast not that i can see. What book is it in?

Complete Scoundrel. It's a multiclassing feat between Spellthief and (other) arcane casters.

[FuryOfMetal]

Thanks. So with Spellthief 1/Wizard 5 and Master Spellthief is my CL for arcane casting and stealing spells 6? People said there was some discussion on the subject, I guess it's DM dependant.

[Greenish]

Thanks. So with Spellthief 1/Wizard 5 and Master Spellthief is my CL for arcane casting and stealing spells 6?

Master Spellthief says that "[y]our spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells".

The contested issues is whether that means that your CL = spellthief level + arcane casting class level or your CL = spellthief level + normal CL.

Also, the feat doesn't increase the amount of spell levels you can hold stolen at any time, so with one-level dip you can steal higher level slots away from enemy casters, but can't use them yourself. This latter issue isn't usually contested.

[FuryOfMetal]

Can i not use the spells even if their on my wizard spell list and not from a banned school?

[Greenish]

Can i not use the spells even if their on my wizard spell list and not from a banned school?

Nope. The capacity to hold stolen spells is separate from your spells per day (and your spells per day are separate from Spellthief and Wizard, if you take enough spellthief levels to gain spells).

[FuryOfMetal]

Ah ok thanks.

So, assuming ST1/Wiz5/USS10 with Master Spellthief and Divination spell power my CL in divination spells will be 19 and my non divination spells will be 16?

[Eldariel]

Effects are applied in the order most beneficial to the player. In particular:

I'm aware of all of that but unfortunately it does not really present a strong argument in this particular case. Thing is, it's not a bonus. Practiced Spellcaster acts as a bonus, but Master Spellthief really just modifies what counts towards the caster level base. It does not e.g. grant you bonus in your arcane caster level equal to your spellthief level, and allow using your arcane caster level for spellthief spells too. So while Practiced Spellcaster is clear, Master Spellthief, not much.

Ah ok thanks.

So, assuming ST1/Wiz5/USS10 with Master Spellthief and Divination spell power my CL in divination spells will be 19 and my non divination spells will be 16?

That's what all this discussion is about. Apparently there's disagreement on the matter. Just ask your DM; RAW matters little when there's one present and all this is pure RAW discussion.