[3.5] Unorthodox Warfare Help!

[arguskos]

Ok, so, I've made Illithids (stat block much changed, obviously; I can post it if wanted/needed) a player race in my personal campaign setting, and in the creation of their society came to war and weaponry. They're very scientifically and magically advanced, but still have to wage war the old fashioned way: with sharp things breaking soft squishy people.

Each race in this world has their own little quirks in warfare, and the illithids of Orlyndol should be no exception. Still, I've having issues figuring out unique weapons and armor for the race. Humanity has magitek firearms, elvenkind use steam-powered swords and weapons, the trepek (renamed from Silentium) are their own weaponry, the goblinoids are traditional D&D weapons/armor, the illithids are the last big faction and need something unique.

Thoughts? I'm at a HUGE mental roadblock and need some help here, since I'm trying to get this setting squared out by Christmas so I can run a game in early 2011.

[unosarta]

My first thought is that they wouldn't need any weapons, enslaving and abusing other races for power, but one way to take it might be to have a rod of command. Basically, it is a great club that allows the illithid to make it's "mind crush" esque attack against a single target with a melee roll, and giving it a +3 to the DC.

Maybe even ranged attacks could use it. Possibly it could be a weapon enhancement.

[Chrono22]

Try biological warfare.. here are some ideas:

Whenever the illithid conquer a territory, they infect any bodies of water with larva. These larva in turn seek out hosts in the local fauna.
The illithid produce augmented or modified versions of larva, to produce specialty forms. So, you have a combat form illithid, a scout form, etc.
They'd also have a weaker "fodder" form, which is essentially just a larva that's attached itself to a normal humanoid.

[arguskos]

My first thought is that they wouldn't need any weapons, enslaving and abusing other races for power, but one way to take it might be to have a rod of command. Basically, it is a great club that allows the illithid to make it's "mind crush" esque attack against a single target with a melee roll, and giving it a +3 to the DC.

Maybe even ranged attacks could use it. Possibly it could be a weapon enhancement.

Well, like I said, they have a VERY different stat block, since they're a player race. They have no innate psionic powers now, including no Mind Blast. That changes things, since by default they have to kill people with the normal "STABTODEATH" method.

The culture is also vastly different. They are not evil by default, no longer enslave intelligent creatures, etc. They're more like a race of Leonardo da Vinci's than anything else. The world isn't very nice though, so they frequently have to fight people off who would covet their achievements and technologies.

Here's their current (non-final, if you have suggestions, go ahead) stat block:

Spoiler

Show

Illithid Racial Statistics:
Stats: +4 Int, -2 Con, -2 Str
Size/Speed: Medium, 30 ft
Special: telepathy 100 ft; 4 slams (1d4+.5 Str); extract; 1/day charm person (CL= character level, DC=11+Int mod)
Languages: Common, Qualith (spoken language of the illithids)
Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Intolian (spoken language of humanity), Goblin, Orog

EDIT: Chrono, that's a pretty good thought. Biological warfare makes a lot of sense. I'll look into that further. Any thoughts on the more personal gear level?

[zenanarchist]

Well, like I said, they have a VERY different stat block, since they're a player race. They have no innate psionic powers now, including no Mind Blast. That changes things, since by default they have to kill people with the normal "STABTODEATH" method.

The culture is also vastly different. They are not evil by default, no longer enslave intelligent creatures, etc. They're more like a race of Leonardo da Vinci's than anything else. The world isn't very nice though, so they frequently have to fight people off who would covet their achievements and technologies.

Here's their current (non-final, if you have suggestions, go ahead) stat block:

Spoiler

Show

Illithid Racial Statistics:
Stats: +4 Int, -2 Con, -2 Str
Size/Speed: Medium, 30 ft
Special: telepathy 100 ft; 4 slams (1d4+.5 Str); extract; 1/day charm person (CL= character level, DC=11+Int mod)
Languages: Common, Qualith (spoken language of the illithids)
Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Intolian (spoken language of humanity), Goblin, Orog

EDIT: Chrono, that's a pretty good thought. Biological warfare makes a lot of sense. I'll look into that further. Any thoughts on the more personal gear level?

Is this for the campaign me, Tem and PM were helping you with?

[unosarta]

That does change it some. Do they still have tentacles on their face? I can imagine some mindflayers wearing giant partially bionic suits that elongate their tentacles, allowing them to use improved grab and other such grappley abilities.

For a high intelligence, savant type race, something that allows for personal appearance more, or "style" of the fighting would be one way to put it. Really any Taiqi weapon would work here, the Rope Dart being my first thought.

This video provides some good examples of Taiqi weaponry.

Here is the Rope Dart.

[arguskos]

Is this for the campaign me, Tem and PM were helping you with?

Yeah, it is. I've moved on to another race now, since we have the goblinoids pretty well squared out.

EDIT: unosarta, they look EXACTLY the same. Appearance didn't change. I'll check out those videos though, thanks!

[unosarta]

EDIT: unosarta, they look EXACTLY the same. Appearance didn't change. I'll check out those videos though, thanks!

Then the tentacle suits might not be a bad idea. I would still stick with some of the Taiqi weapons, though.

[arguskos]

Then the tentacle suits might not be a bad idea. I would still stick with some of the Taiqi weapons, though.

Liking the rope weaponry more, actually. Much more artistic in nature. I was also wondering how to make use of their tentacles during combat and/or any special weaponry I could invent for them to use that makes use of the fact that they've got a good 6 prehensile limbs to work with here.

[Temotei]

Liking the rope weaponry more, actually. Much more artistic in nature. I was also wondering how to make use of their tentacles during combat and/or any special weaponry I could invent for them to use that makes use of the fact that they've got a good 6 prehensile limbs to work with here.

Tentacle barrier! Spin them around really fast!

[arguskos]

Tentacle barrier! Spin them around really fast!

...I like this idea and wish to subscribe to your newsletter (ie. tell me more, that doesn't say much).

[Fable Wright]

Here's food for thought: Perhaps have the illithids use symbiotic weaponry. For example, armor that is made out of a carapace that fuses with the illithid's skin that grants armor, as well as DR and the ability to heal itself (Basically, make it full plate, with less or an armor check penalty, give it the armor as DR variant, and allow it to also function as a healing belt (MIC). Alot of little things, but it adds up), and maybe the illithid's weapons are tentacle-like creatures that can channel the illithid's mind blast attack; they have their own strength attack bonus, overcoming the illithid's combat weakness, and when it strikes a foe, they either inflict a paralysis poison, or affect the foe as if they were hit by a mind blast. Add alot of similar organic weapons, and these guys would be terrifying.

EDIT: Ninja'd FOUR TIMES.

[unosarta]

...Wow, I can't believe that I didn't think of using the Tentacles as holders for the Rope Dart. That is awesome.

Another weapon might be the Meteor Hammer. It can be really powerful as a weapon, although it's most common use is as entertainment.

This is an example of both Rope Dart and Meteor Hammer.

[Temotei]

...I like this idea and wish to subscribe to your newsletter (ie. tell me more, that doesn't say much).

There are plenty of options. You could have a multi-bladed weapon with segments for each tentacle to hold, or a huge bow built on a similar concept...or have three tentacles hold illithid-made giant arrows (so, two giant arrows) and maybe include parts for the hands to hold and shoot normal arrows.

Illithids would be excellent jugglers...hmm...

Make a ball weapon that, upon impact (or upon reaching a certain speed (i.e. throwing speed)), releases poison/spikes/a mind blast-like effect (or a combination).

Make lightweight plates for their tentacles, allowing them to quickly deflect arrows and blows from smaller weapons more easily. Alternatively, create a "tentacle glove." This would also allow them to kind of spin their tentacles back and forth really fast to attack, possibly, or it could just provide a shield bonus to AC or something.

In fact, the tentacles themselves could be a good defense. When an illithid matures, its tentacles harden without losing flexibility, in a way similar to cartilage and bone for humans.

Also, you should totally make the rope dart in The Measure of a Man.

[unosarta]

Also, you should totally make the rope dart in The Measure of a Man.

Yes.

Everything else Temotei said works as well. I see the illithid more as intelligent finesse fighters, rather than ZOMG Magic fighters like the humans, or steampunk like the elves, or whatever that other one is.

They could also bring a possibly needed Asian theme to the campaign setting.

[Temotei]

By the way, what prompted the name change from silentium to trepek?

[arguskos]

There are plenty of options. You could have a multi-bladed weapon with segments for each tentacle to hold, or a huge bow built on a similar concept...or have three tentacles hold illithid-made giant arrows (so, two giant arrows) and maybe include parts for the hands to hold and shoot normal arrows.

Thought about a super-bow, but size is an issue. Their tentacles aren't that long. I then thought about a multibow, and that might work.

Illithids would be excellent jugglers...hmm...

They have access to some feat trees that are...exceptional.

Make a ball weapon that, upon impact (or upon reaching a certain speed (i.e. throwing speed)), releases poison/spikes/a mind blast-like effect (or a combination).

Huh, interesting. Any reason why?

Make lightweight plates for their tentacles, allowing them to quickly deflect arrows and blows from smaller weapons more easily. Alternatively, create a "tentacle glove." This would also allow them to kind of spin their tentacles back and forth really fast to attack, possibly, or it could just provide a shield bonus to AC or something.

Tentacle plating makes sense. Their armor comes with it, of course. I was thinking they would make armor from lightweight ceramics and other such advanced materials instead of plain steel or iron. Thoughts on a possible "illithid plating" material?

In fact, the tentacles themselves could be a good defense. When an illithid matures, its tentacles harden without losing flexibility, in a way similar to cartilage and bone for humans.

Considering that they are natural attacks for illithids, I figure this is already done.

Also, you should totally make the rope dart in The Measure of a Man.

Need a picture from Tetsubo first.

Yes.

Everything else Temotei said works as well. I see the illithid more as intelligent finesse fighters, rather than ZOMG Magic fighters like the humans, or steampunk like the elves, or whatever that other one is.

They could also bring a possibly needed Asian theme to the campaign setting.

The illithids are going to be more smarts-based warriors. Their unique base class (did I mention the racial base classes? Oh, right, there are race-specific base classes, since racism is a big theme in this setting) is going to be like Illithid Body Tamer++.

Also, the society is already set, and it's decidedly non-Asian in theme. I don't care much for asian themes personally, and since I can get that in lots of other games, I didn't see a need to include it here. *shrug*

Here's food for thought: Perhaps have the illithids use symbiotic weaponry. For example, armor that is made out of a carapace that fuses with the illithid's skin that grants armor, as well as DR and the ability to heal itself (Basically, make it full plate, with less or an armor check penalty, give it the armor as DR variant, and allow it to also function as a healing belt (MIC). Alot of little things, but it adds up), and maybe the illithid's weapons are tentacle-like creatures that can channel the illithid's mind blast attack; they have their own strength attack bonus, overcoming the illithid's combat weakness, and when it strikes a foe, they either inflict a paralysis poison, or affect the foe as if they were hit by a mind blast. Add alot of similar organic weapons, and these guys would be terrifying.

EDIT: Ninja'd FOUR TIMES.

Huh. Bioarmor/weapons. Thoughts on how bioweapons might look? Perhaps Tyranid-style?

...Wow, I can't believe that I didn't think of using the Tentacles as holders for the Rope Dart. That is awesome.

Another weapon might be the Meteor Hammer. It can be really powerful as a weapon, although it's most common use is as entertainment.

This is an example of both Rope Dart and Meteor Hammer.

Meteor Hammers are pretty nice, and already included in the setting, though not tied to anyone in specific (currently, the only example of their use is a trepek who has 5 different chain weapons built into his form, one in each arm, and uses them as he likes during battle).

By the way, what prompted the name change from silentium to trepek?

I like Trepek more than Silentium. Silentium sounds a bit too future-y for my liking.

[Fable Wright]

Actually, I was more envisioning tightly fitted leather-like armor with chitinous plates over vital areas, with displacer beast-like tentacles with huge reach coming out of the upper arms and back. The hooks at the end would be ideal for dispersing toxins to weaken wills and cause unconsciousness, as the illithids need thralls and food. In addition, the hands on the ends of the bio-suits would be chuul claws; this way, you can grapple foes while you manifest powers and eat foes in your claws (Which also contain paralyzing tentacles); these weapons and armor would also have sensory organs allowing them to react to foes the illithid can't, and operate with their own strength and dexterity over the illithid's.

The illithids would probably use biological materials for weapons/armor, as biological materials repair themselves, have specialized sensory organs to respond to threats faster than the illithid could, and power themselves by feeding on corpses the illithids have already extracted the brains from. All advantages, with the added plus that non-illithids donning the suit get eaten.

[Drakevarg]

Illithid weaponry should never be what it seems at first glance. Give every weapon a secondary function. Like an arrow that, once fired, splits it's arrowhead into a rain of needle-y death. Or a warhammer that has spinning blades unfold from the head, to give the effect of smacking someone with a lawnmower.

Edit: An Ivy-style chain sword. A dagger whose blade can shoot off like a dart. A bow that can snap in half in the middle and become sword-chucks.

[Snowfire]

Illithid weaponry should never be what it seems at first glance. Give every weapon a secondary function. Like an arrow that, once fired, splits it's arrowhead into a rain of needle-y death. Or a warhammer that has spinning blades unfold from the head, to give the effect of smacking someone with a lawnmower.

Edit: An Ivy-style chain sword. A dagger whose blade can shoot off like a dart. A bow that can snap in half in the middle and become sword-chucks.

This.

If you're going with a very intelligent race (who fight hand to hand), then one of the greatest advantages you can give them is combat misinformation. Force the enemy to prepare for one thing and then throw something completely different at them. It's the sort of thing you'd expect from such a race, but even then you're never going to know what the weapon the Illithid in front of you is holding actually is and that could make things very, very interesting in combat.

[arguskos]

Actually, I was more envisioning tightly fitted leather-like armor with chitinous plates over vital areas, with displacer beast-like tentacles with huge reach coming out of the upper arms and back. The hooks at the end would be ideal for dispersing toxins to weaken wills and cause unconsciousness, as the illithids need thralls and food. In addition, the hands on the ends of the bio-suits would be chuul claws; this way, you can grapple foes while you manifest powers and eat foes in your claws (Which also contain paralyzing tentacles); these weapons and armor would also have sensory organs allowing them to react to foes the illithid can't, and operate with their own strength and dexterity over the illithid's.

Hmm, I like that suit idea. However, as stated above, these illithids no longer need thralls or food. Great weapon though.

The illithids would probably use biological materials for weapons/armor, as biological materials repair themselves, have specialized sensory organs to respond to threats faster than the illithid could, and power themselves by feeding on corpses the illithids have already extracted the brains from. All advantages, with the added plus that non-illithids donning the suit get eaten.

I definitely like the idea of bioweapons/armor. I need to play with this further.

Illithid weaponry should never be what it seems at first glance. Give every weapon a secondary function. Like an arrow that, once fired, splits it's arrowhead into a rain of needle-y death. Or a warhammer that has spinning blades unfold from the head, to give the effect of smacking someone with a lawnmower.

Edit: An Ivy-style chain sword. A dagger whose blade can shoot off like a dart. A bow that can snap in half in the middle and become sword-chucks.

Multisplit arrows, chain blades, dagger darts, bladed bows, lots of hidden weapons, sounds good. I like these ideas too.

This.

If you're going with a very intelligent race (who fight hand to hand), then one of the greatest advantages you can give them is combat misinformation. Force the enemy to prepare for one thing and then throw something completely different at them. It's the sort of thing you'd expect from such a race, but even then you're never going to know what the weapon the Illithid in front of you is holding actually is and that could make things very, very interesting in combat.

Interesting. Perhaps some feats akin to Neraph Charge/Neraph Throw are in order for the illithids, racial feats that play to the deceptive powers of the illithid fighters?

[unosarta]

Interesting. Perhaps some feats akin to Neraph Charge/Neraph Throw are in order for the illithids, racial feats that play to the deceptive powers of the illithid fighters?

Maybe a racial feat that allows them to make a feint attempt with Intelligence instead of Charisma?

[arguskos]

Maybe a racial feat that allows them to make a feint attempt with Intelligence instead of Charisma?

Feinting is a mechanic I've meant to improve anyways,since it's so pathetic currently. That's a nice start, as are the Circle Student/Master feats I rebuilt from Dragon Compendium to actually be good.

Any other thoughts? I came up with biological grenades called secretion spheres last night. I need to post stuff up, maybe I'll do that tomorrow after class when I've got some free time.

[Fable Wright]

It could also be possible to just give all of the weapons a biological field. One more thing to note is that illithids would favor reach weapons like the spiked chain; that gives greater battlefield control. Following in the biological/multifunction weapons/armor idea, it might be cool to have a primary weapon be something similar to a very long tsochar strand (LoM) with alot of spikes at the end; the spikes could simultaneously function at sensory organs, and with a little pseudo-intelligence and telepathy added, they could function as basic scouts for an illithid, as well as a chain-like weapon. For the splitting arrows, a bunch of chitin plates could unfold around the forearm into an x-like bow centered around the hand, that would shoot very thick manticore-like spines that would split near the peak of their flight; thus, it's an AoE effect, and they might be able to add in an airborne disease that they are immune to in the effect, to kill off some survivors after the battle if the illithids somehow lost. In addition, the plates could over-extend to form a sharp sword-like object around the illithid's hand, giving the benefits of grafted weapon, and perhaps also a contagion effect on any airborne diseases they put in the manticore shots. Dagger-darts might serve a third use in that they might be a parasite, and when they hit someone, they begin burrowing into their flesh in a manner similar to a burrowing scarab (Cursed item, DMG). There are so many uses for so few things... it really gives you a sense of how much they can kill you.

[Analytica]

You probably won't want to include it, but I now get visions of Incarnum-using illithid warriors, specifically in the form of Totemists refluffed as using bio-weaponry...

[Temotei]

Huh, interesting. Any reason why?

Not really. I just went off the juggling thought that sprung up.

[arguskos]

It could also be possible to just give all of the weapons a biological field. One more thing to note is that illithids would favor reach weapons like the spiked chain; that gives greater battlefield control.

Yeah, I'm really getting that vibe here.

Following in the biological/multifunction weapons/armor idea, it might be cool to have a primary weapon be something similar to a very long tsochar strand (LoM) with alot of spikes at the end; the spikes could simultaneously function at sensory organs, and with a little pseudo-intelligence and telepathy added, they could function as basic scouts for an illithid, as well as a chain-like weapon.

...woah. Like... WOAH. I LIKEY THIS I LIKEY SO MUCH AUGH.

For the splitting arrows, a bunch of chitin plates could unfold around the forearm into an x-like bow centered around the hand, that would shoot very thick manticore-like spines that would split near the peak of their flight; thus, it's an AoE effect, and they might be able to add in an airborne disease that they are immune to in the effect, to kill off some survivors after the battle if the illithids somehow lost. In addition, the plates could over-extend to form a sharp sword-like object around the illithid's hand, giving the benefits of grafted weapon, and perhaps also a contagion effect on any airborne diseases they put in the manticore shots. Dagger-darts might serve a third use in that they might be a parasite, and when they hit someone, they begin burrowing into their flesh in a manner similar to a burrowing scarab (Cursed item, DMG). There are so many uses for so few things... it really gives you a sense of how much they can kill you.

... It feels like they are morphing into a biological Iron Man of sorts. WHICH IS AWESOME.

I did draw up what I'm calling a clawsuit, which is a basic exotic bioarmor with some 10-ft claw-tentacles built in. I'll be posting stats up tomorrow, if folks are interested.

You probably won't want to include it, but I now get visions of Incarnum-using illithid warriors, specifically in the form of Totemists refluffed as using bio-weaponry...

You're right, I don't want to use it, but not for the reason you think. Ya see, I've nothing against Incarnum, but when I was crawling through the mechanics for this world and deciding which systems had a place and which didn't, Incarnum came down on the "no" side, simply because their role as the "soul food" of power sources has been replaced by binding (which has had fluff altered somewhat).

Not really. I just went off the juggling thought that sprung up.

XD I incorporated the sphere idea anyways.

Also, hey, I realized I hadn't said this yet, but wow, thanks a crapload guys! This is really great stuff. Keep it coming (if you're interested, of course)!

[Xefas]

Well, with all this talk of ceramics and bioweapons and such, why not just go full Mind Flayer Space Marine?

This is a race with +4 Int and -2 Str/Con. You've already said that they're more a race of Leonardo Da Vincis than anything else. And, there's a reason that artists and scientists aren't typically the first line of defense on the battlefield. They stay at home while the guys who've spent their time lifting weights and training their instincts for combat go forth and do the dirty work.

The problem is that such a race is going to have a few soldier-types and more pasty nerd-types. So why not use the pasty nerds to *make* soldier types?

The Mind Flayers could have a program. If one of their own commits some sort of heinous crime (murder, mayhem, treading where Man Ought Not To Go with science, talking in the movie theater), instead of sending them to prison, or having them executed, you conscript them into service.

Once you've been conscripted, the Mind Flayers mess with your brain. They still have Telepathy and Charm Person as racial abilities, so this seems to represent some sort of natural aptitude for messing with folks' brains. So, they mess with your brain - turn you into a frothing-at-the-tentacles patriot. We're talking religious zealot of the worst kind, but towards the government, rather than a deity.

Then, they use their biotech to beef you up into a 10' slab of muscle, with double (and possibly triple) redundant organs. Lose a lung? No problem, you have six. Poison? I have eight livers - no poison for me. Don't forget the constant aggressive hormone emitters that leave you an inch from discarding all pretenses at self-preservation and just tearing bare-handed through the closest living thing that looks at you funny.

On top of that, you have ceramic fullplate with tiny biosymbiotes wired into them that mesh directly with the implants that got stuck all over your body. I'm thinking -0 Armor Check Penalty.

Then, that's when you bust out the chainsaw hammers and the crossbows-that-are-actually-ballistae-but-they're-so-strong-it-doesn't-matter that also shoot chainsaw hammers.

Whereas every other race on the planet fields an army, the Illithids field a squad or two. That way, everyone else can stay home and work on their marble sculptures and frankenstein monsters and whatnot.

EDIT: Aw man, just graft some wings onto a few, and you have the Cthulhu Chapter.

[arguskos]

Xefas, I really hate to do this... but I beat you to it already. Humanity in this world is basically the Imperium in temperament, society, and military force.

I do like the extreme emphasis that is being suggested towards bioweapons and genetic engineering. It entirely fits the race's proclivities, is highly distinct from every other race, and is endlessly interesting.

[Xefas]

Xefas, I really hate to do this... but I beat you to it already. Humanity in this world is basically the Imperium in temperament, society, and military force.

I do like the extreme emphasis that is being suggested towards bioweapons and genetic engineering. It entirely fits the race's proclivities, is highly distinct from every other race, and is endlessly interesting.

Oh. Well then...ummm...errr...

Orks! Mind Flayers work like Orks! Their mild natural psionics pool together when they gather in large numbers and...and...yeah, I got nothin'.