Ao = Io? Idea for a Mini-campaign

[Gabe the Bard]

Ao is the overgod of the Realms, and Io is the supreme deity of dragons. But is there any relationship between them? Has anyone ever included them in a campaign or drawn some sort of connection between the two, perhaps as two aspects of the same supreme being?

I'm preparing a short mini-campaign for my D&D group, and I'd like to include the Cult of Ao in the story. Now, if there's a connection between Ao and Io, it might be a way to include a group of dragon-blooded bards as the villains. Perhaps they believe that Ao is a manifestation of Io after he created the multiverse, or they're on a misguided quest to replace Lord Ao with the supreme deity of their own draconic pantheon.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[Amiel]

They are distinct entities. Ao, like you said, is the overgod of Realmspace; he is the contemporary of the High God of Krynn, and some theorise the Lady of the Pain.
Io, on the other hand, has been thrown off his lofty position and is now a greater deity only.

There is no relationship between the two, although the two might have interacted. These interactions would have favoured Ao since he is the more powerful of the two.
Ao keeps his sphere of influence separate from Io, and vice versa.

[Drakevarg]

They are distinct entities. Ao, like you said, is the overgod of Realmspace; he is the contemporary of the High God of Krynn, and some theorise the Lady of the Pain.
Io, on the other hand, has been thrown off his lofty position and is now a greater deity only.

There is no relationship between the two, although the two might have interacted.
Ao keeps his sphere of influence separate from Io, and vice versa.

Bah. Never let such petty things as "canon" get in the way of your own campaign.

[Amiel]

I was operating under the assumption of canon since he didn't specify whether he wanted a non-canon answer or not.


Ao rides Io into battle, wielding Tempus as a battleaxe and Helm as a shield; on his shoulders sit Garyx and Bahamut, breathing fire and ice respectively.

[Drakevarg]

I was operating under the assumption of canon since he didn't specify whether he wanted a non-canon answer or not.


Ao rides Io into battle, wielding Tempus as a battleaxe and Helm as a shield; on his shoulders sit Garyx and Bahamut, breathing fire and ice respectively.

I was kind of assuming the question was quasi-hypothetical, in the sense that he was gonna go through with the idea regardless of whether or not he was right in the canon sense.

[Zaq]

I always just thought that Io's name came from advancing the letters in "GM" two apiece (G - H - I, M - N - O) rather than any connection to Ao. But then, I don't know anything about Ao. I don't care enough about the Realms fluff to actually read up on the Eight Hundred Myriad Deities on the High Plain of Heaven.

[Gabe the Bard]

For a split second, I misread that as "on his shoulders sit Gary Gygax and Bahamut..." hehehe

Canon and non-canon ideas are both fine. The idea that I mentioned in the OP came partly from the Sunmasters in Lost Empires of Faerun, who believe that Lathander is a reincarnation of the sun god Amaunator. If Io really did create the multiverse, perhaps he created an aspect of himself in the form of the overlord Ao to preside over the Realms. I know that's probably not canon, but it could be the sort of thing that a group of cultists would believe in.

[Mystic Muse]

Bah. Never let such petty things as "canon" get in the way of your own campaign.

agreed. My current campaign takes canon and runs it through a blender.

[KillianHawkeye]

Ao rides Io into battle, wielding Tempus as a battleaxe and Helm as a shield; on his shoulders sit Garyx and Bahamut, breathing fire and ice respectively.

Shouldn't he wear Helm on his head???

[Meta]

For a split second, I misread that as "on his shoulders sit Gary Gygax and Bahamut..." hehehe

Canon and non-canon ideas are both fine. The idea that I mentioned in the OP came partly from the Sunmasters in Lost Empires of Faerun, who believe that Lathander is a reincarnation of the sun god Amaunator. If Io really did create the multiverse, perhaps he created an aspect of himself in the form of the overlord Ao to preside over the Realms. I know that's probably not canon, but it could be the sort of thing that a group of cultists would believe in.

I refuse to believe it says anything other than Gygax.

Also, I could be mistaken, but the canon for Ao says he quashes any 'cults' of his that spring up. He's supposed to remain relatively invisible to mortals, it's really only gods that ever prompt his appearance

[NeutralAwesome]

Of course when I read the thread title I though of the Jovian moon. Couldn't wait to see how you explained that... Oh well!

[dsmiles]

Io, on the other hand, has been thrown off his lofty position and is now a greater deity only.

In the Council of Wyrms boxed set it said that he stepped down from his lofty position, IIRC. Either way, same result.

I refuse to believe it says anything other than Gygax.

Me too.

[Morph Bark]

For a split second, I misread that as "on his shoulders sit Gary Gygax and Bahamut..." hehehe

Everyone does because that is exactly what Garyx is based off of. I mean, Garyx is called the All-Destroyer. It is only an extra hint towards the ol' master of disintegrating traps.

[EvilJames]

I refuse to believe it says anything other than Gygax.

Also, I could be mistaken, but the canon for Ao says he quashes any 'cults' of his that spring up. He's supposed to remain relatively invisible to mortals, it's really only gods that ever prompt his appearance

No he just ignores them and doesn't grnt them any powers whatsoever (in fact since you don't necessarily need a gods approval to get our powers he may be actively preventing them. ( at least in 2nd ed it was this way with the cult of Ao specialty priest gaining nothing whatsoever) It's the Lady of Pain that squashes cults, but then only when they enter Sigil (as they invariably do) otherwise there is little she can do about them. Io on the other hand has dragon worshipers and always has had them I don't believe he accepts human prayers though, (although I guess he does accept kobold)

[mobdrazhar]

wasn't Io destroyed during the Dawn War and split into Bahammut and Tiamat?

[Zaydos]

It has been hinted before that Io is the High God of Dragonlance (also sometimes Tiamat and Takhisis are listed as the same being, other times, such as the Planes of Law, as completely separate entities).

Also as of the Draconomicon Io is an Intermediate deity

I choose to ignore that.

[Morph Bark]

wasn't Io destroyed during the Dawn War and split into Bahammut and Tiamat?

In 4E maybe, but not in 3.5, where he is their creator.

[dsmiles]

In 4E maybe, but not in 3.5, where he is their creator.

Personally, I prefer the term 'parent.' It makes those two seem like petty, bickering siblings, and sets the tone for all of my dragons. (Basically: a bunch of spoiled rotten brats.)

[KillianHawkeye]

wasn't Io destroyed during the Dawn War and split into Bahammut and Tiamat?

In 4E maybe, but not in 3.5, where he is their creator.

That's probably due to 4E's attempt to trim down the massive list of deities into a more manageable number. There are no longer full pantheons for each race, either.

[dsmiles]

That's probably due to 4E's attempt to trim down the massive list of deities into a more manageable number. There are no longer full pantheons for each race, either.

There are in my campaign setting, and there are still 9 alignments. WotC cannot stop me! (Insert evil laugh here.)

[Meta]

No he just ignores them and doesn't grnt them any powers whatsoever (in fact since you don't necessarily need a gods approval to get our powers he may be actively preventing them. ( at least in 2nd ed it was this way with the cult of Ao specialty priest gaining nothing whatsoever) It's the Lady of Pain that squashes cults, but then only when they enter Sigil (as they invariably do) otherwise there is little she can do about them. Io on the other hand has dragon worshipers and always has had them I don't believe he accepts human prayers though, (although I guess he does accept kobold)

The forgotten realms campaign guide (4e so 3.X obviously may be different)

AO
The Hidden One
Standing outside the divine hierarchy, and outside the
cosmos, is the mysterious Ao. Thought by some to be the
creator of the cosmos, his might is unimaginable. He is
the judge of the deities, and the one power whom even
the greater gods fear.
Ao exists beyond the concept of alignment or worship.
He serves no one, and no one serves him. Instead
he watches all, sees all, and judges all.
No mortal worships Ao. Any sects that spring up, based
on fragmented legends and unreliable lore, disappear
quickly. No legitimate priests of Ao exist in Toril.

And then Draconomicon (also 4e)

During the wars between the primordials and the
gods that followed the world’s creation, the primordial
known as the King of Terror attacked and slew
Io and the dragons defending Io. According to one
account, the dragon deities Tiamat and Bahamut rose
from the two halves of Io’s corpse. Another legend
claims that Tiamat and Bahamut were among Io’s
eldest creations and received their father’s divine
spark upon his death.

[Amiel]

For a split second, I misread that as "on his shoulders sit Gary Gygax and Bahamut..." hehehe

Anything is possible in _your_ campaign :)

Shouldn't he wear Helm on his head???

Not really, Helm is the deity of guardians and protectorship; this would be better personified as a towering shield.
Torm could be his helm though.


You know what'll be a good idea?
Set up the "final form" of Ao and Io as a Voltron-esque creature.
Sune is his breastplate, Tempus his battleaxe, Helm his shield, Torm his helm, Tyr his sword, Talos his lance or spear, Mystra his belt, Bane his gauntlets, Chauntea his pants, Silvanus his boots, Lathander his periapt, Oghma his tunic, Shar his gloves et al.

[Gabe the Bard]

You know what'll be a good idea?
Set up the "final form" of Ao and Io as a Voltron-esque creature.
Sune is his breastplate, Tempus his battleaxe, Helm his shield, Torm his helm, Tyr his sword, Talos his lance or spear, Mystra his belt, Bane his gauntlets, Chauntea his pants, Silvanus his boots, Lathander his periapt, Oghma his tunic, Shar his gloves et al.

Whoa, that is just... whoa...

[dsmiles]

You know what'll be a good idea?
Set up the "final form" of Ao and Io as a Voltron-esque creature.
Sune is his breastplate, Tempus his battleaxe, Helm his shield, Torm his helm, Tyr his sword, Talos his lance or spear, Mystra his belt, Bane his gauntlets, Chauntea his pants, Silvanus his boots, Lathander his periapt, Oghma his tunic, Shar his gloves et al.

FORM BLAZING SWORD!!!

[KillianHawkeye]

Not really, Helm is the deity of guardians and protectorship; this would be better personified as a towering shield.
Torm could be his helm though.

It was a joke. You usually wear a helm on your head! Get it?

[Amiel]

Whoa, that is just... whoa...

FORM BLAZING SWORD!!!

So...I believe we have our idea? Any one disagree?

It was a joke. You usually wear a helm on your head! Get it?

Hence the not really
And it was a pretty poor connection; it's like saying Cat should be a cat because her name is Cat

[Zaydos]

Also helms protect your most vital part, and the word helm or helmet, according to the Oxford English Dictionary (mine's an old edition so it might be a little out of date) comes from Indo-European words meaning to Defend (which leads to the fun fact that William means "the Will to Defend" although I've also seen it as "to Wish Well Defended").

[KillianHawkeye]

it's like saying Cat should be a cat because her name is Cat

Well... my highschool Spanish teacher DID name her cat "Gato."
It means "cat" in Spanish, since apparently I have to explain every joke now.

[Zaydos]

Well... my highschool Spanish teacher DID name her cat "Gato."

My little brother named a cat "Neko".
It means cat in Japanese.

[Eloel]

You know what'll be a good idea?
Set up the "final form" of Ao and Io as a Voltron-esque creature.
Sune is his breastplate, Tempus his battleaxe, Helm his shield, Torm his helm, Tyr his sword, Talos his lance or spear, Mystra his belt, Bane his gauntlets, Chauntea his pants, Silvanus his boots, Lathander his periapt, Oghma his tunic, Shar his gloves et al.

Snarl trembles in fear.