Bone Knight (Eberron 3.5)

[Noedig]

Ok so this class looks awesome for melee clerics, but I've got this problem. The class is literally steeped in Necromancy, which in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing. However, Animate Dead is a decidedly evil spell. So my question is:

Does Bone Knight eventually force you into evil?

[Lord_Gareth]

I'd discuss it with your DM, personally, especially since many folks (myself included) are of the opinion that Animate Dead isn't actually evil. I mean, if my army of skeletons runs soup kitchens and builds orphanages, what's the problem?

[Mongoose87]

It's Eberron. Evil=/= "Evil"

[Cicciograna]

Eberron is quite flexible on alignment and spell descriptors. The relevant information is on page 35 of Eberron Campaign Setting: the rules state that if you repeatedly cast an Evil spell your alignment could begin to change, but that's not guaranteed.

By the way, this could be an interesting RP issue: your character is well aware that he's dabbling with Evil, and thus sometimes he feels that he has to amend, going on a special quest to right a wrong, donate some money for a Good cause, etcetera.

[Coidzor]

Basically, if it does, then you can take actions to counteract it. Or continue on as you have been depending upon how evil the people you're thwarting are, and such.

[Pechvarry]

I mean, if my army of skeletons runs soup kitchens and builds orphanages, what's the problem?

I love you.

[Dracons]

I'd discuss it with your DM, personally, especially since many folks (myself included) are of the opinion that Animate Dead isn't actually evil. I mean, if my army of skeletons runs soup kitchens and builds orphanages, what's the problem?

Did you get permission from the original owners and/or loved ones? Even if your running a soup kitchen with bone soup, doesn't make it right your forcing someone body against their will to do what you want. Besides, what if they hate kids?

[Coidzor]

Did you get permission from the original owners and/or loved ones? Even if your running a soup kitchen with bone soup, doesn't make it right your forcing someone body against their will to do what you want. Besides, what if they hate kids?

You mean other than the whole bit about how "Dave's being here anymore, man," bit?

And the bodies of fallen foes being usually left for the crows anyway, so you're cheating the carrion creatures out of some bone marrow.

And of course, long-dead skeletons(or better yet, fossils, then they're all stony) usually don't have any loved-ones who'd care.

[Greenish]

YAnd of course, long-dead skeletons(or better yet, fossils, then they're all stony) usually don't have any loved-ones who'd care.

Animated fossil should be more an animated object rather than an undead, given that it's all stone, just in the shape of bones.

[Urpriest]

Animated fossil should be more an animated object rather than an undead, given that it's all stone, just in the shape of bones.

There's actually a template for animated fossils in Libris Mortis. I've been intending to homebrew a PrC that makes them...

[Gabe the Bard]

You could simply avoid using the spells that have the Evil descriptor. We used to have a Lawful Good Necromancer in our party, who never raised a single undead creature.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You could simply avoid using the spells that have the Evil descriptor. We used to have a Lawful Good Necromancer in our party, who never raised a single undead creature.

maybe you have a different concept of necromancers... but to me the archetypical necromancer is the guy who goes "Muahahah, rise from your graves my undead minions"

[Amphetryon]

Maybe he was just born during Dia de los Muertos, giving him an understandable fascination with the subject.

[Hague]

Depends. Observe necromancy in the Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind. The dark elves used necromancy as a major part of their religion and that trafficking with fiendish extra-planar entities is not entirely evil either.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Maybe he was just born during Dia de los Muertos, giving him an understandable fascination with the subject.

If said necromancer had this fascination, why hasn't he raises any undead?

Depends. Observe necromancy in the Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind. The dark elves used necromancy as a major part of their religion and that trafficking with fiendish extra-planar entities is not entirely evil either.

Never said he was evil, just that to me being a necromancer inherently means raising undeads.

[Amphetryon]

If said necromancer had this fascination, why hasn't he raises any undead?



Never said he was evil, just that to me being a necromancer inherently means raising undeads.

He lacks the appropriate Spellcaster level? His interest is more intellectual?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'll give you that amphetryon, but I stated it was my view on the necromancy

[Nanoblack]

maybe you have a different concept of necromancers... but to me the archetypical necromancer is the guy who goes "Muahahah, rise from your graves my undead minions"

Thats the thing about archetypes, they're just common examples used to represent something. Just like there are fallen paladins, necromancers may also rise.

[Coidzor]

To become Batman.

[Gabe the Bard]

Our LG Necromancer was... interesting, to say the least. He was inflicted with a homebrewed disease that made his flesh rot off, so he was wrapped with a special robe that kept his body intact, like Darth Vader. His character had a very dark image, but he stuck by his Lawful Good alignment and avoided using any spell with the Evil descriptor. He still had some good Necromancy spells he could use; he just never led an army of undead minions.

[Coidzor]

Sounds like the type that could've done with a Necropolitan in hand.

...Come to think of it, what would a Necropolitan be? With a Cosmo, you've got vodka, triple sec, cranberry, and lime..

[Noedig]

Huh. I may actually have to build a Bone Knight cleric just so I can raise dead to run soup kitchens. They can follow simple instructions right?

"When a person come to the cauldron with a bowl in their hand, use the ladle to get them soup." Too complicated?

[Gabe the Bard]

"When a person come to the cauldron with a bowl in their hand, use the ladle to get them soup."

You should probably preface that with "Don't eat their brains."

[Amiel]

For Eberron, as it functions under an extremely grey morality scale, you could remove the evil tag.
I personally don't see why the spell is evil, as it only deals with dead bodies (a neutral imposition; if it were re-animating bodies that had been close to death or forcing its commands upon conscious will then it would be an evil spell; even enchantment spells aren't all "evil".

[Leon]

I'd discuss it with your DM, personally, especially since many folks (myself included) are of the opinion that Animate Dead isn't actually evil. I mean, if my army of skeletons runs soup kitchens and builds orphanages, what's the problem?

Its good, you have to get the ingredients for the soup somewhere and if you run orphanages its made easy...

[LordBlades]

You should probably preface that with "Don't eat their brains."

Skeletons being mindless and such, they probably won't eat somebody's brains unless specifically told to

[Godless_Paladin]

Ok so this class looks awesome for melee clerics, but I've got this problem. The class is literally steeped in Necromancy, which in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing. However, Animate Dead is a decidedly evil spell. So my question is:

Does Bone Knight eventually force you into evil?

No, it doesn't. The class is designed for Eberron, which is not constrained by the "omg, undedz are teh evulz" thing. The class is explicitly designed for alignments ranging the full scale.

Indeed, you can totally be Lawful Good and go all Karrnathi paladin as a Bone Knight. The Karrns don't see necromancy as such a bad thing. Recruiting posters say something like "Serve your country! Twice!" and people are all for it. It's an honor to keep fighting for your country, even beyond death. Bonus points because their zombies/skeletons are intelligent. And now that the war is over, it seriously is not actually all that unexpected for an undead work force to engage in war relief, such as building orphanages and soup kitchens. And the Karrns are led by a vampire king who is the one guy advocating for lasting peace in Khorvaire.

Skeletons being mindless and such, they probably won't eat somebody's brains unless specifically told to

A Bone Knight can also create intelligent undead whenever he feels like it. It's a class feature called "Fill the Ranks." They prefer patriotism to brains, though.

[Lord_Gareth]

Did you get permission from the original owners and/or loved ones? Even if your running a soup kitchen with bone soup, doesn't make it right your forcing someone body against their will to do what you want. Besides, what if they hate kids?

The original owner isn't using the body any more - he's gone and he ain't coming back (and even if he is, resurrection works just fine on a skeleton, animated or otherwise). As far as the loved ones go, the body isn't their property, now is it? The skeleton is literally just a construct running off of negative energy instead of an elemental force. It's no more evil than making a clay golem run a soup kitchen, and MUCH more efficient.

[Coidzor]

Depending upon how the DM decides to interpret elemental spirits, potentially much less evil than the golem.

[SilverLeaf167]

Undead are considered evil mostly thanks to "flower hat grannies" (a Finnish term, sort-of-means "old woman who complains about everything"). The same kind of people who think video games cause violence, that all teenagers are arrogant punks and that Dungeons and Dragons is the devil*.

*Geez, that still makes me laugh.