[3.P] What if we were all Wizards?

[Endarire]

Recently, there have been threads on this forum about the brokenness of core and the 3.P system. Mostly, these have compared casters to Fighters.

We know that casters can have ludicrous numbers of options compared to non-casters. Often, a caster can cast a single spell to remedy an otherwise difficult or "impossible" situation.

How would things change if every person in the party played a Wizard? What if every human and demihuman were a Wizard? Flavor-wise, things would change, but I'm more concerned about how balance would change.

I'm not saying everyone should try to fill a different role. For example, in a party of 4, we may have 4 Conjurers or 2 Conjurers, a Generalist, and a Transmuter, but options would be more in line with one another.

I'm just not sure how long the world would last considering how much power would be tossed around.

[Urpriest]

Yeah, off the top of my head it would just exacerbate the rocket-tag feel of high level 3.5. Everyone being Fighters is much more playable than everyone being Wizards.

[Crossblade]

Yeah, off the top of my head it would just exacerbate the rocket-tag feel of high level 3.5..

Until they go against a golem, and then it's more like Team Rocket... blasting off.

[Gnaeus]

How would things change if every person in the party played a Wizard? What if every human and demihuman were a Wizard? Flavor-wise, things would change, but I'm more concerned about how balance would change.

I'm not saying everyone should try to fill a different role. For example, in a party of 4, we may have 4 Conjurers or 2 Conjurers, a Generalist, and a Transmuter, but options would be more in line with one another.

I'm just not sure how long the world would last considering how much power would be tossed around.

I played in an all wizard game. It works fine. Everyone had fun. We had a melee guy, a healer (me), an enchanter and a skill monkey (who took 1 level in rogue.)

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Yeah, off the top of my head it would just exacerbate the rocket-tag feel of high level 3.5. Everyone being Fighters is much more playable than everyone being Wizards.

Until they go against a golem, and then it's more like Team Rocket... blasting off.

Actually, no. For the former, see the Arcane Adventures on these very forums. There's also the fact that all fighters would have issues taking on CR appropriate dudes without rocking (magic) expendables. In the case of the later, conjuration has that covered in every way possible.

[Urpriest]

Actually, no. For the former, see the Arcane Adventures on these very forums. There's also the fact that all fighters would have issues taking on CR appropriate dudes without rocking (magic) expendables. In the case of the later, conjuration has that covered in every way possible.

You're missing the part where the monsters are Wizards too. Similarly, my all-Fighterverse was on the assumption that monsters only have goodies accessible to Fighters, so no to limited flight, for example.

And I wouldn't say a Wizard game is unplayable, I'm well aware there are many counterexamples. I simply argue that to the extent that 3.5 has a problem with encounters being either trivial or overpowering, and this being decided on the first round, an all-wizard campaign would be moreso.

[dsmiles]

I tell you what, If I was a wizard, I'd never ever have to sit in freaking DC traffic ever again.

[Starbuck_II]

I tell you what, If I was a wizard, I'd never ever have to sit in freaking DC traffic ever again.

No, then you would be stuck in Wizard traffic or covered in floo powder.

[dsmiles]

No, then you would be stuck in Wizard traffic or covered in floo powder.

Standing in line for teleport access? Probably still takes less time than my hour-and-a-half drive (which totals only about 23 miles).

[Logalmier]

Until they go against a golem, and then it's more like Team Rocket... blasting off.

Blasting off in the most controlled way possible.

What would happen against a golem is that the characters would realize it was a golem, teleport away, research spells that work on golems while keeping tabs on that particular golem. Then they would prepare those spells, teleport to the golem and finish it off.

If thats what you mean by blasting off then yes. :P

[Psyren]

Until they go against a golem, and then it's more like Team Rocket... blasting off.

Even in core-only they can just Summon Bigger Fish or Polymorph Into Bigger Fish or Charm Bigger Fish to fight for them. Outside core... yeah.

[cdrcjsn]

It would be a case of whoever wins initiative wins the fight.

Even at low levels, a well placed Color Spray can spell doom for an entire party.

[Dr.Epic]

Until they go against a golem, and then it's more like Team Rocket... blasting off.

Conjurers: get someone else to go your work.

[AxeD]

What if we were all only 1st - 3rd level wizards in real life? From most of the real life equivalency D&D character surveys I've seen, you generally don't get put higher than a 2nd-3rd level character. That'd mean you'd only have access to 1st and 2nd level spells. They wouldn't be that world breaking either.

Well, endure elements would be nice to deal with annoying weather, unseen servant to deal with minor physical chores and comprehend languages would come in handy for foreign films/tv shows (would you need to touch the screen?), but it's not like they significantly better your life in any way.

I can't remember the name of the spell, but there's some first level spell that lets you read/learn stuff at an acellerated rate - that'd be damn useful for university/schooling.

The only 1st level spell that would seriously disrupt the world would be charm person. There's no way you wouldn't get a prison sentence for affecting someone's mind without their consent. And it would be so tempting to have!

Anyone else think differently?

[Psyren]

Anyone else think differently?

Cast Scholar's Touch, win life.

[Pechvarry]

Recently, there have been threads on this forum about the brokenness of core and the 3.P system. Mostly, these have compared casters to Fighters.

We know that casters can have ludicrous numbers of options compared to non-casters. Often, a caster can cast a single spell to remedy an otherwise difficult or "impossible" situation.

How would things change if every person in the party played a Wizard? What if every human and demihuman were a Wizard? Flavor-wise, things would change, but I'm more concerned about how balance would change.

I'm not saying everyone should try to fill a different role. For example, in a party of 4, we may have 4 Conjurers or 2 Conjurers, a Generalist, and a Transmuter, but options would be more in line with one another.

I'm just not sure how long the world would last considering how much power would be tossed around.

On the contrary, this is the most realistic D&D setting. When you can create perpetual motion and be whatever superhero you want, on demand, survival of the fittest says eventually, the world's populations will only consist of those with a positive mental score and some means of casting. BSFs are simply dinosaurs.

[Tyndmyr]

Recently, there have been threads on this forum about the brokenness of core and the 3.P system. Mostly, these have compared casters to Fighters.

We know that casters can have ludicrous numbers of options compared to non-casters. Often, a caster can cast a single spell to remedy an otherwise difficult or "impossible" situation.

How would things change if every person in the party played a Wizard? What if every human and demihuman were a Wizard? Flavor-wise, things would change, but I'm more concerned about how balance would change.

I'm not saying everyone should try to fill a different role. For example, in a party of 4, we may have 4 Conjurers or 2 Conjurers, a Generalist, and a Transmuter, but options would be more in line with one another.

I'm just not sure how long the world would last considering how much power would be tossed around.

I have done this. It was awesome. Combat was filled with cool stuff happening all the type, the battleground changed frequently, and it never became a litany of "I roll a d20" every round.

All primary caster parties are on a pretty even balance keel, and the games are fantastic. I encourage everyone to try it.

On the golem subject, not everyone was actually blasted to death. Incapacitating, and CDGing with a scythe was popular, as were crossbows. I have no doubt that golems could be obliterated by such a team.

[Randel]

Do wizards actually have access to magical healing? If every single human is a wizard then logically there shouldn't be any divine casters who have access to cure spells. Which means that there is no source of magical healing in the setting (unless wizards have access to healing magic that I don't know about).

Actually, I think there might be a few alternate class features that allow for low level magical healing (like replacing your familiar for some kind of spirit thing that can convert spells into healing magic for you alone). In which case, only a few people would be able to make use of magical healing.

So, if 99% of all the hitpoint damage in the world has to be healed via mundane means then there would probably be quite a few people putting skill points in Heal or Craft: bandages or whatever. Thus, even if a person doesn't have a very high int score needed to cast arcane magic (and can't afford a way to magically increase their int score) then then they can get a job using skills that don't have Int as their base stat.


Also, wizards need access to their spellbooks to memorise and cast spells. Thus, whichever wizard governement controlls the land would be able to control what spells are available by controlling access to spellbooks.

First off, they control access to the magical inks that people need to write scrolls from or to write new spells in their spellbooks.

Then, they controll all the wizard libraries where arcane knowledge is kept and put different books in different sections. Spells that are okay (like ones that boost craft skills or other mundane tasks are freely available to everyone while actual combat spells are restricted).

They might allow everyone to learn utility or protective spells (mage armor and shield are readily available) while other spells are only available to the military or police forces. Magic missile would likely be very restricted since wizards have low hit points anyway and the spell always hits, unless you've got a brooch of shielding to protect against magic missiles then a shot or two would likely kill a civilian wizard.

Anyone caught casting restricted spells without the proper license would be put in jail, have their spellbooks and equipment removed, and the wizard cops would run through their stuff with a fine toothed comb.

People would research less lethal spells (ones that simply disable or deal nonlethal damage) because spells might actually hit innocent bystanders and there are other ways to make use of prisoners.

The spells Distilled Joy and Liquid Pain can extract pain or pleasure from the target and turn it into drugs that can be used to substitute the XP cost of spells or crafting magic items.

Thus, prison systems (or other places where you cna get alot of warm bodies) could be set up to basically become Ambrosia or Agony factories. Figure out a way to fill people with joy and then constantly extract distilled joy from them (distilled joy is a level 3 spell while liquid pain is a level 4 spell... so luckily it would be cheaper to extract joy from people). So the prisons would probably be full of permanant custom made Symbols of Pleasure that basically act as lotus eater machines that make everyone nearby writh with magically induced pleasure (or some other way to do it) then extract ambrosia from them and send it off to magic item factories.

Wizards can make use of pearls of power and headbands of intelect increase their intelligence. So, mass-producing pearls of power would increase the total amount of magic the society has access to. So, using distilled joy factories (which use a 3rd level spell to work) to mass produce ambrosia to substitute the crafting XP costs could make more 3rd level pearls of power to make more ambrosia.

Then, it they ever have a war or something and they need a whole lot of 3rd level spells cast then they just grab up all the pearls of power and use them to spam whatever spells they need to win the fight.


Basically, while everyone is powerful then there will be some who are more powerful than others. Each wizard has value insofar as they can cast spells, which means that a king or emperor wants to control all the wizards under him to make use of their spells (why waste his own spell slots on mundane chores when he can make his underlings do it... and keep his spell slots free to protect himself from being overthrown?).

Plus, the pearls of power and other magic items help augment a wizards powers. These magic items can be controlled by the government and require licenses to use. Anyone who used magic items without a license or in a way the government doesn't like has their magic items taken away.

And, anyone without magic due to limited intelligence gets stuck with the mundane jobs (or uses magic items to do stuff). Undesirables or criminals get stuck in prison/distilled joy factories where they produce the ambrosia that lets 'good' wizards produce magic items without using up their own XP for crafting.


Lack of divine magic would limit some of the cooler spell combos like Plant Growth, Create Food and Water, Raise Dead and the like. Though the Clone spell would probably be nice if there are enough high level wizards to maintain the clone facilities. Any wizard with enough money could put up an insurance policy and donate the tissue sample needed to grow the clone and maintain them. Since the clone spell needs a facility to keep the clone body around then the government could control that to make sure the people they want alive stay alive and the people they want dead stay dead.

Though spells like Flesh to Stone would be nice since they can turn someone to stone so they aren't revived via the Clone spell (since the haven't dies) and can be revived later if the need them.

[Godless_Paladin]

Do wizards actually have access to magical healing?

Yes, actually, a Wizard can learn healing spells.

[Randel]

Yes, actually, a Wizard can learn healing spells.

Really? Which spells can they learn?

[Coidzor]

Well, Arcane Disciple would let them learn all of the Healing Domain spells for instance. I believe the Domain Wizard variant class also allows something along those lines.

I believe those are two of the lesser things to do as well.

[BobVosh]

Really? Which spells can they learn?

Summon monster; Quite a few outsiders can do CXW.

SM9:
Astral deva has 7 CLW, 1 heal, remove curse, remove diesease
Azata, Ghaele can prepare 3 heals, although defaults to only 1
SM 7:
Azata, Lillend: CSW 2/day


Then there is gate, planar bindings, Repair (if warforged), wish, limited wish.

Most of these are fairly high level, but you can do a lesser planar binding for a decent outsider. Also I think you can get a unicorn for a familiar if you spend enough feats, but not positive. Unicorns have a lot of healing.

[Tyndmyr]

Additionally, there's the repair line, which are arcane. Healing spells for constructs.

Alternatively, tomb tainted soul makes any negative energy inflicting spell a healing spell.

Neither of those are all-purpose healing, but in the right situation, they are fantastic.



Technically, for a core way, wish and limited wish can duplicate spells. Limited wish would normally be the preferred way, for obvious cost reasons. Still, this is more of an emergency heal option that a routine use. There are many, many easier ways to get out of combat healing instead.

My absolute favorite way of wizard healing is taking the reserve feat to get infinite summons, and making or buying a vampiric weapon. Hand it round the party, and keep summoning things to hit.

[gdiddy]

Predicting Tippy's arrival in 3...2...

[Endarire]

C'mon, Tippy!

Regarding healing, Wizards can research spells for 1000G and 1 week per spell level. Especially in this situation, why wouldn't Wizards research cure, restoration and revival spells?

[Gnaeus]

Well, Arcane Disciple would let them learn all of the Healing Domain spells for instance. I believe the Domain Wizard variant class also allows something along those lines.

I believe those are two of the lesser things to do as well.

Thats how we delt with it. And even if the arcane disciple only gives 1 clw per day, that is enough to make and use scrolls and wands.

[Ravens_cry]

If everyone was a wizard, we would be on the other side of the galaxy by now. And a good thing too, 'cuz we would have blown up the planet by now as well.

[Logalmier]

If everyone was a wizard, we would be on the other side of the galaxy by now. And a good thing too, 'cuz we would have blown up the planet by now as well.

Of course we could always make a new planet from scratch if everyone was a wizard...

[Radar]

Of course we could always make a new planet from scratch if everyone was a wizard...

Everyone cast Wall of Stone in 3.. 2.. 1..

All wizard party would work just fine: Conjurer provides tankers (or improvised trapfinders) and healers if need be, Illusionist and Transmuter provide buffs, Necromancer can debuff or blast away. A pack of wizards can replicate any regular party function.

[Logalmier]

Everyone cast Wall of Stone in 3.. 2.. 1..

All wizard party would work just fine: Conjurer provides tankers (or improvised trapfinders) and healers if need be, Illusionist and Transmuter provide buffs, Necromancer can debuff or blast away. A pack of wizards can replicate any regular party function.

Only ten times better.