do I understand this correctly?

[big teej]

LA is bad - I know this already
why is LA bad - I have been informed of this
ECL = LA + racial hit die
LA buy off = acceptable (ish)
how LA buy off works ~ shakey quasi understanding
query: does it work to just 'start behind' the party level?

for instance, lets say I want to play an ogre ranger
LA2+4 RHD + ranger = ECL: 7? correct?

so, to make up for the fact I 'have the abilities' of a character to levels higher,

if my Ranger started at level 5, would everything be oki dokie?



secondary question
is LA+1 as much of an issue as ..... well, any greater LA?


thanks in advance

[Greenish]

how LA buy off works ~ shakey quasi understanding

You basically take a certain level twice.

query: does it work to just 'start behind' the party level?

for instance, lets say I want to play an ogre ranger
LA2+4 RHD + ranger = ECL: 7? correct?

so, to make up for the fact I 'have the abilities' of a character to levels higher,

if my Ranger started at level 5, would everything be oki dokie?

You catch up much faster than in normal LA buyoff. Most LAs are rather inflated though, so it might be okay.

And yes, 2 LA + 4 RHD + 1 level of ranger = ECL 7.

secondary question
is LA+1 as much of an issue as ..... well, any greater LA?

The abilities from the race are almost always worse than what you could gain from class levels. The more you have LA, the more you lose (generally).

[Kylarra]

You also have to remember that RHD are murder to any hopes of LA buyoff since you can both never buy them off, and they delay your buyoff point. So your ogre in question with LA+2 and RHD4 needs to wait until class level 6, or ECL 12 before he can buy off his first point of LA.

[big teej]

sooo

for purposes of the discussion

does starting x* levels behind the party even it out?

for example, starting as a first level ranger "at first level" (putting everyone else at level 5, and you at 1) and ignoring any and all LA work?

or how about starting at 'level 1' ECL 5 and the party at 7?

I'm searching for a uber-simple way to make the LA problem go away

*disclaimer* "don't play races with LA" is vetoed.

[Kylarra]

You seem to be wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

Starting 2 levels behind the party with pre-bought off LA simply means that you'll gain back the exp much faster than if you'd bought it off normally, because exp is a river.

Ideally if you want to play an LA+ race like that, everyone simply takes a few points of LA so you all "start" at the same point.

[Vangor]

if my Ranger started at level 5, would everything be oki dokie?

Not really, because the ECL determines experience required to increase level and experience gained from encounters. You will start with no mechanical difference compared to considering yourself ECL 7 with +2LA or ECL 5 without those LA, but you will make the adjustments due to levels would be made up faster with lower ECL.

is LA+1 as much of an issue as ..... well, any greater LA?

As mentioned, the bigger the LA the bigger the issue, depending of course on what you are choosing for the adjustment. Rarely would I find a LA worthwhile, personally, and anything with racial hit dice won't be considered.

For my own campaigns, to let my players incorporate a little more variety, we do 32 point buys where LA can be bought off with 4 points per LA.

[ericgrau]

I think the reason is splatbook classes, feats, etc. are better so you need to compensate. I mean I ran the numbers and some LAs are about right compared to core classes but others are 0.5 LA too high. Gnolls are one example, and they can be fixed with a +2 stat bonus but I dunno if that would work for everything.

I think a simple solution would be to multiply the LA by a flat percentage, and that percentage would vary from group to group based on what books are allowed. In all core, it's nearly 100%. Racial hit dice complicate things, since some creature types are stronger than others. Then you have to guess on how much LA the RHD is worth and include that too. When rounding up or down you could round normally or look at the race to see if it's on the weak or strong side of its LA. The splatbook races that are stronger might need different treatment though.

I think LA buyoff is backwards because most races tend to get better as you level up, not worse. It's the low HP, low etc. early levels that hurt. If anything I'd have LA start lower and get higher. IMO buyoff should only be used when the principle behind it applies: with races whose special abilities become obsolete. Otherwise it's just a convoluted and poor way to reduce LA when you could do it directly.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I mean I ran the numbers and some LAs are about right compared to core classes but others are 0.5 LA too high.

Ran which numbers, and how?

[Tvtyrant]

There was a forum that had a large section of monster level conversions I am looking up for you. Instead of being a monster and then adding levels you get the monster stats in a series of levels, essentially allowing you to gain levels into either a better monster or a class.

What do you know it was THIS forum. Weird.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165439

Then scroll to the ogre one :P

[ericgrau]

Ran which numbers, and how?

With a computer program. Only on the martial classes, which are the only ones who'd want to use LA anyway. Basically saw how well they did in simplistic fights against CR appropriate monsters. For example half-dragon (LA 3) is balanced at about LA 2 early and LA 4 later. Gnolls are too strong at LA 0 and too weak at LA 1. A +2 to str or con fixed that. Some other core races I messed around with were effective as-is, but others were a little behind like the gnoll. If you're curious grimlock, lizardfolk, orc and pixie (sneak attacking) are a few good ones. The large races seem to all be behind in a simple damage fight which I suspect is due to their other advantages at grappling, tripping and reach.

[big teej]

There was a forum that had a large section of monster level conversions I am looking up for you. Instead of being a monster and then adding levels you get the monster stats in a series of levels, essentially allowing you to gain levels into either a better monster or a class.

What do you know it was THIS forum. Weird.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165439

Then scroll to the ogre one :P

that, is going to be a very useful thread

but if I'm reading the ogre entry correctly, you don't get everything you normally would as an ogre...

+3 str vs +10? kinda sticks out the most too me, but I may have been misreading/misunderstanding it.... but thats how I read it.

[Starbuck_II]

that, is going to be a very useful thread

but if I'm reading the ogre entry correctly, you don't get everything you normally would as an ogre...

+3 str vs +10? kinda sticks out the most too me, but I may have been misreading/misunderstanding it.... but thats how I read it.

True, you get powerful build though. So when you become large size you can weild huge stuff.

You lose 5 Str but lose the mental/Dex penalties.

[big teej]

True, you get powerful build though. So when you become large size you can weild huge stuff.

You lose 5 Str but lose the mental/Dex penalties.

for me, half the fun was playing something dumb for a change.....

for me, the whole point in playing an ogre, is to play an OGRE.... the sort of creature that can pick people up and toss them with nary a thought...

I direct you to Lady Moreta's snippet thread for my ranger.

so for me, giving up 5 str in exchange for no mental deficinies doesn't balance out to something I want to play