Is the sorcerer really worth it?

[Kaeso]

I will not touch the wizard vs sorcerer debate, yet there are other reasons I question the usefullness of a sorcerer. Like the wizard, he has an abysmal HD, AC (due to not being able to wear armor, and defensive spells cost a precious spell slot at lower levels while only being useful for a limited time), and low BAB.

A beguiler has the same spell per day progression, starts with a whole busload of spells known (as he's a "list" caster), has a d6 and can wear light armor without any spell faillure chance. On top of that beguilers also have proficiency with some martial weapons, trapfinding, two free metamagic feats and an entire truckload of skills and skill points. Sure, their spell list is limited to the enchantement/illusion theme but advanced learning allows them to learn a few other spells like shadow conjuration/evocation that allow them to do some direct damage or summoning (this becomes even more useful in conjunction with the shadowcraft mage prestige class). It can be far more useful in more diverse situations

If we take all of that in mind, what exactly redeems the sorcerer being in tier 2 while the beguiler is in tier 3? As far as I can see the sorcerer is pretty gimped until it reaches level 10 (if it can survive up to that point).

EDIT: The Beguiler is also a good class from levels 1-20, while 20 levels of sorcerer gives you nothing notable besides spells, and it doesn't have any good prestige classes.

[Greenish]

If we take all of that in mind, what exactly redeems the sorcerer being in tier 2 while the beguiler is in tier 3?

Spells.

Beguiler knows all on her list, but sorcerer can pick his from the best list in game. There are some ridiculously good ones in there, such as Wings of Cover.

[Tyndmyr]

kobold.

wings of cover.

wings of flurry.

[Kaeso]

Spells.

Beguiler knows all on her list, but sorcerer can pick his from the best list in game. There are some ridiculously good ones in there, such as Wings of Cover.

True, but the spells only make a sorcerer redeemable past level 10 or so. Before that he doesn't have enough winsauce spells to last beyond 3 or so encounters.

Also, taking a "counter" spell like wings of cover means you can't take a good direct damage spell known, which weakens your overall spell arsenal.

[Psyren]

So sorcerers are useless before level 10?

Don't get me wrong, I prefer psions myself, but really.

Also, taking a "counter" spell like wings of cover means you can't take a good direct damage spell known, which weakens your overall spell arsenal.

All the damage spells in the world won't matter if you are dead.

[Coidzor]

Damage spells? Isn't that what MINIONS! are for?

[Kaeso]

So sorcerers are useless before level 10?

Don't get me wrong, I prefer psions myself, but really.



All the damage spells in the world won't matter if you are dead.

A sorcerer is 4th level by the time he knows "wings of cover". That leaves him with a defensive spell he can use three times a day, and three 1st level spells with 6 castings in total. That means he has 3 "can't touch this" spells and 6 pretty weak spells.

[Nanoblack]

True, but the spells only make a sorcerer redeemable past level 10 or so. Before that he doesn't have enough winsauce spells to last beyond 3 or so encounters.

Also, taking a "counter" spell like wings of cover means you can't take a good direct damage spell known, which weakens your overall spell arsenal.

That's a very presumptuous statement... have you ever played a sorcerer to level ten? Most of the theoretical optimizing on these boards is very inaccurate when compared to what goes on in an actual game.

[Quietus]

The tier system is, as I understand it, built not to measure raw power, but overall flexibility, along with ability to wreck a game. A few things the Beguiler does - mostly charm effects, I think, plus the rare effect garnered through Advanced Learning - can be game-breaking, yes. But the Sorcerer is able to pick from a much larger list of spells, gaining many defenses unavailable to the Beguiler, as well as attack forms - I don't believe Beguilers get Glitterdust, do they?

Basically, the Beguiler does one thing exceptionally well, in the form of the enchantment/illusion trickery. Sorcerers can be built to do basically anything they want exceptionally well, they just have to be built for that specific thing; This flexibility puts them up one tier, as they can either do just as well as a Beguiler at enchantment/illusions (with a side in other cheesetastic options), OR they could be resourceful transmutation specialists, or power-hungry necromancers. Every Beguiler will be an enchantment/illusion specialist, which is strong, but not as flexible.

By the same token, Wizards are a step up from Sorcerers because they can pull off nearly every trick the Sorcerer has, while also having the option to use all the tricks some OTHER sorcerer has the next day.

[ericgrau]

All you need is one good versatile spell you can cast 3ish times a day. For example I was playing a level 6 or so sorcerer making highly effective use of sleet storms to make encounters a cakewalk. Large numbers of foes, small numbers of foes, heck even a house on fire, sleet storm can handle anything. Only complaint in one encounter was waiting too long for foes to come out so the party could 4v1 each one :P. Before level 6 flaming spheres were passable in damage, glitterdust wasn't so hot due to the small AoE. But he was still ok, and by comparison I shudder at the thought of putting up with a level 2 single target spell instead of an AoE spell. Darn, he saved or is mindless, well that's my action.

As for the limitation to illusion and enchantment, that's a very severe drawback. Those are fairly specialized schools. I would only play such a class in certain campaigns no matter how much you gave me. Shadow evocation and shadow conjuration are a joke. Give the enemy 2 saves instead of 1, or 1 instead of none, only partially effective, spell 1 level lower AND half of the spells that are great because they can't be dispelled or otherwise removed or can't be saved against... now can be. No thanks.

[Tyndmyr]

True, but the spells only make a sorcerer redeemable past level 10 or so. Before that he doesn't have enough winsauce spells to last beyond 3 or so encounters.

Also, taking a "counter" spell like wings of cover means you can't take a good direct damage spell known, which weakens your overall spell arsenal.

Aright, let us consider a hypothetical sorcerer at level 8, with wings of flurry and wings of cover. Let us further assume he has boosted CL on WoF somewhat. Not a ton, just say...a reserve feat and any other +1CL booster of choice. We'll pretend he doesn't know about arcane thesis or metamagic yet.

His caster stat WILL be high enough for a bonus spell, so he has four wings of flurry per day, doing 10d6 damage to all hostiles within 30 feet. Force. Saves? What? Oh, there is a save against the debuff, but it should generally matter, as 35 damage to all enemies in a single round at level 8 means you've done your share for the party.

WoC means his low hp really isn't likely to matter. He has a LOT of slots open for it.

So, he can literally cast one spell per combat, then chill in the back and cast magic missile or something. In encounters against a number of lower level opponents, his single spell probably IS the encounter. This has significant leftover firepower in the form of unused lower spell slots and spells known.

[Psyren]

A sorcerer is 4th level by the time he knows "wings of cover".

4 is still less than 10.

That leaves him with a defensive spell he can use three times a day, and three 1st level spells with 6 castings in total. That means he has 3 "can't touch this" spells and 6 pretty weak spells.

Why are you assuming level 1 spells are weak? Grease is pretty badass (so many people neglect balance), then throw in Magic Missile as the standard fallback and Expeditious Retreat for when your party bites off more than it you can chew - there's your 3.

Outside core you can start picking up lesser orbs and throw in a True Strike.

[Kaeso]

4 is still less than 10.



Why are you assuming level 1 spells are weak? Grease is pretty badass (so many people neglect balance), then throw in Magic Missile as the standard fallback and Expeditious Retreat for when your party bites off more than it you can chew - there's your 3.

Outside core you can start picking up lesser orbs and throw in a True Strike.

which still leaves him with 2 level 1 spells per encounter. Even a spell like grease can incapacitate 1 or 2 enemies. Beyond that the sorcerer hardly has anything to contribute to the party. Your level 2 spells are purely defensive on account of your single level 2 spell known being devoted to wings of cover.

[Eldariel]

which still leaves him with 2 level 1 spells per encounter. Even a spell like grease can incapacitate 1 or 2 enemies. Beyond that the sorcerer hardly has anything to contribute to the party. Your level 2 spells are purely defensive on account of your single level 2 spell known being devoted to wings of cover.

Color Spray is fine, Sleep has its uses (though not after level 4 or so) and Daze is a cantrip that does something (locks down a single humanoid enemy). Both Color Spray and Sleep are multitargeting, as is Grease. They can contribute, alright.

[Nanoblack]

which still leaves him with 2 level 1 spells per encounter. Even a spell like grease can incapacitate 1 or 2 enemies. Beyond that the sorcerer hardly has anything to contribute to the party. Your level 2 spells are purely defensive on account of your single level 2 spell known being devoted to wings of cover.

Well that early in the game you're likely to be using a crossbow to supplement your damage and to conserve your spells, but that doesn't mean he cant contribute.

[Psyren]

which still leaves him with 2 level 1 spells per encounter. Even a spell like grease can incapacitate 1 or 2 enemies. Beyond that the sorcerer hardly has anything to contribute to the party. Your level 2 spells are purely defensive on account of your single level 2 spell known being devoted to wings of cover.

You don't have to grab WoC right away. At level 5 (still less than 10) you get another level 2 spell; feel free to make it offensive or a buff if you wish. Or even postpone WoC until later.

I would grab Alter Self at 4 personally.

[Volthawk]

A beguiler has the same spell per day progression, starts with a whole busload of spells known (as he's a "list" caster), has a d6 and can wear light armor without any spell faillure chance. On top of that beguilers also have proficiency with some martial weapons, trapfinding, two free metamagic feats and an entire truckload of skills and skill points. Sure, their spell list is limited to the enchantement/illusion theme but advanced learning allows them to learn a few other spells like shadow conjuration/evocation that allow them to do some direct damage or summoning (this becomes even more useful in conjunction with the shadowcraft mage prestige class). It can be far more useful in more diverse situations

Can the Beguiler cast Animate Dead? How about Scrying? Or the Polymorph line?

[Gnaeus]

I will not touch the wizard vs sorcerer debate, yet there are other reasons I question the usefullness of a sorcerer.

A beguiler has the same spell per day progression,

If we take all of that in mind, what exactly redeems the sorcerer being in tier 2 while the beguiler is in tier 3? As far as I can see the sorcerer is pretty gimped until it reaches level 10 (if it can survive up to that point).

EDIT: The Beguiler is also a good class from levels 1-20, while 20 levels of sorcerer gives you nothing notable besides spells, and it doesn't have any good prestige classes.

Sorcerer is in tier 2 and Beguiler is in tier 3 because.....JaronK says so.

As you have noted, a beguiler's spells are generally as strong as common sorcerer spells, on top of a better base with actual class features.

Where the unresolveable argument comes in is what qualifies as fair at different levels of optimization.

Clearly, at really low optimization, Beguiler, with his list of solid spells, higher hp, skills, and AC, beats a sorcerer who chose bad spells. Even JaronK will admit that tier 2's are disproportionally vulnerable to poor choices in chargen/leveling, whereas tier 3's are hard to mess up.

So we are really only talking about mid to high op levels here.
Sorcerer:A moderately optimized sorcerer will have a good range of spells from different schools.
Beguiler: But so will a beguiler, using spell list expanding tricks like Arcane Disciple, or UMD'd runestaves.
Sorcerer: But a sorcerer gets game breaking spells in PHB, and has awesome draconic sorcerer only spells
Beguiler: I can break the game much better with Races of Stone, since Shadowcraft Mage makes my spell list huge.
Sorcerer:But at that level of optimization I have greater draconic rite of ascention for +2 levels of casting.
B: But that is way cheasier. S: No it isn't. B: Is. S: Isn't.

Ultimately, a 1 tier difference is very difficult to prove in most cases, including this one. JaronK makes a lot of campaign assumptions (like convenience of items to buy for UMD) that may or may not be true in your game. Beguiler and Dread Necro are pretty clearly the top of tier 3. Op level, Campaign (what you are fighting? are there magic marts?), sources allowed, play style, etc can all tip the balance one way or the other.

Can the Beguiler cast Animate Dead? How about Scrying? Or the Polymorph line?

Yes. It is generally easier for the beguiler to add spells known (UMD, Arcane disciple, PRCs) than for the sorcerer.

[Coidzor]

Except you're forgetting that the tiers are not about how they are in actual play, hence why it would be misleading to say "X is playing his Class Y as a Tier Z." Rather, the tier system represents the raw potential inherent in the class.

[Kaeso]

Except you're forgetting that the tiers are not about how they are in actual play, hence why it would be misleading to say "X is playing his Class Y as a Tier Z." Rather, the tier system represents the raw potential inherent in the class.

Yes, it's about potential versatility. But the average beguiler has a higher versatility than the average sorcerer due to high skill points and knowing every spell on her list.

EDIT: And UMD

[Greenish]

Yes, it's about potential versatility. But the average beguiler has a higher versatility than the average sorcerer due to high skill points and knowing every spell on her list.

Well, I'm not quite certain what an "average sorcerer" or an "average beguiler" looks like, but beguilers draw their spells mostly from two schools, and from two books (as far as I can remember). Sorcerer is a PHB base class, which means he has more options with each splatbook, and draws his spells from the largest and most versatile spell list in the game.

UMD? Again, sorcerers have most everything you could want from UMD on their list already.


Don't get me wrong. Beguilers have a much narrower focus than make-your-own-houdini sorcerers, but IMO that makes them a much better designed class. I'd much rather play a beguiler than an illusion/enchantment focused sorcerer.

[Radar]

Yes, it's about potential versatility. But the average beguiler has a higher versatility than the average sorcerer due to high skill points and knowing every spell on her list.

EDIT: And UMD

Not just versatility, but raw power as well. As it was said in the original thread, Tier 3 classes are more versatile then Tier 2, but don't have access to game-breaking powers/spells. Sorcerer has a much higher potential power, because he has access to the whole wizard/sorcerer spell list and some notable sorcerer-only spells. Beguiler has a preset spell list, so out of the box he doesn't have such a game-breaking potential (Planar Binding, Gate, Arcane Fusion abuse etc.). And to be powerhouse, sorcerer doesn't need that many spells - two direct damage spell (single/multiple opponents), one SoL for each save (backed up by some No Save Just Suck spells later) and the rest goes for defences and general utility. Heighten Spell and stat-boosters keep all your low-level SoL spells relevant at higher levels.

[BeholderSlayer]

Yes, sorcerers are worth it, without a question or doubt. The only difference between a sorcerer and wizard is not power, but rather versatility.

[mootoall]

Okay, so I'm not certain if this has been mentioned before, buuuuuuuuuut ....

A) Direct damage is not the strong point of a good sorcerer. At all. The biggest strengths of casters are to screw your opponents and let the meat shields hit them with sticks.

B) Glitterdust. Grease. Sleep. Three low level save of suck/battlefield control spells. Not sure if the beguiler can cast these, but saying the sorcerer has nothing going for it at low levels is BS when you consider these.

C) The Orb spells. A Lesser Orb of Electricity does 2d8 damage at third level. That's considerable damage at that point. Not to mention spells like Lesser Orb of Sound, which is only 5d6 damage maximum, remains useful for a blaster caster up until high levels when most creatures have fire/acid/cold/electricity immunities/resistances, while at what approximate level do monsters stop being immune to mind-effecting spells? Also, the orbs rock because they're ranged touch spells. A decent dex, you're set. Sure, it turns them from SAD to slightly MAD if you rely heavily on them, but with magic items and only having to hit touch AC, you'll hit as often as not.

D) If you're going to argue the Beguiler is as good as the sorcerer, then why not the Dread Necro? You want damage dealing? Bam, it has that, Charnel Touch. You want meat shields? Just wait a round! It's got that armor proficiency/lack of spell failure you wanted. Fear aura? You got it! A single feat and you're set for healing for life- without a cleric! But still, it's not nearly as versatile as a Sorcerer.

E) Also, while it costs a feat to get proficiency, the Twilight enchantment reduces spell failure by 10%. Say hello to enchanted padded leather armor! This is a minor one, but addresses one of your points. Also, mage armor (does the beguiler get that?) raises the AC even more!

Edit: Also, bloodline feats. I like breath weapons on my casters sometimes.

[Greenish]

E) Also, while it costs a feat to get proficiency, the Twilight enchantment reduces spell failure by 10%. Say hello to enchanted padded leather armor!

A feat for padded leather?

A mithral Twilight chain shirt is 0 ACP (so you can wear it without proficiency without any adverse effects) and 0% ASF.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Alter Self. That's when the Sorcerer starts to outpace the Beguiler. Polymorph seals the deal. Before fourth level, though, the OP is right, but that's because Beguiler is one of the best low level classes in the game. The only comparable class is the Druid.

[Tvtyrant]

A feat for padded leather?

A mithral Twilight chain shirt is 0 ACP (so you can wear it without proficiency without any adverse effects) and 0% ASF.

if you can use leather armor you can wear a mithral breastplate.

The final touch on sorcerers is that once you get archmage they become as unto GODS! Spontaneous alter elements and shapes? Actually be able to use the dispelling bonus? :D

[Greenish]

if you can use leather armor you can wear a mithral breastplate.

That's a feat, +3000gp and +5% ASF for +1 AC.

The point was that the chain shirt needs neither proficiency nor armoured casting.

[Edit]: +1 Mithral Breastplate (without ASF reduction) is more expensive than a +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt, too.

[mootoall]

A feat for padded leather?

Aha, forgot that leather has no Armor Check penalty.

[Gnaeus]

if you can use leather armor you can wear a mithral breastplate.

The final touch on sorcerers is that once you get archmage they become as unto GODS! Spontaneous alter elements and shapes? Actually be able to use the dispelling bonus? :D

Thats exactly the kind of "what optimization is more optimized" splat that becomes impossible to argue. Sorcerer + archmage gets compared with shadowcraft gnome beguilers spamming shadow miracle.