[3.5, Campaign Setting] Traveler's Guide to Zaaman-Rul!

[arguskos]

Herp a derp. Also, spelling error in the description of hivemind; "These bonuses remain until at least one member of the hivemind dies or travels at least one mild away from another member."

I can see a hivemind based dwarf PrC being made. >_>

Agreed on the hivemind, and good spelling catch. You can really tell when I make material while tired. My spelling/grammar goes to hell.

Oh. Um...

*whistles*

Uh huh ok then.

Okay. How do other races react to the idea of a hivemind? It is a fairly alien concept, and I could see some reacting with fear, some with acceptance, etc etc. Any ideas on how specific cultures react?

Well, every man decides for himself, but generalizing by culture...

Intolians dislike the idea (dirty short hive nonhumans uuugh) in general. The idea of giving your mind to someone else is repugnant.

Khavghotani dislike the idea, on the sheer basis of a loss of individuality. They feel that a hivemind detracts from the free spirit and nature the goblinoids hold so dear (the fact that it really doesn't do that doesn't seem to matter).

Alykandorians dislike it, for the same basic reasons as the Khavghotani, and because they fear a loss of security (after all, someone else in their minds means they aren't as secure as they once were).

Orlyndolians, surprisingly enough, dislike the hivemind, but more because it actually uses a lesser form of telepathy than any real hate of the idea. Illithid telepathy is far more powerful and advanced than dwarven telepathy and since the hivemind works with the latter, not the former, to illithids it's fairly unsettling. Still, they tend to regard the concept with mild interest and most illithids would try it at least once, just for the experience.

Trepek are neutral, seeing it as merely another useful tool in daily life.

True elves react poorly to the suggestion, but given their wild and untamed spirits, that's not surprising.

But people know that there is dangerous wildlife under the ground? Or is that only things that few specific individuals know about? Because I could imagine that being pretty terrifying, and since it reaches into the other side of the planet, it could (potentially) be a way for the Qualnargon to reach the mortals.

Sure, fairy tales and wild stories, but cold hard facts are the purview of a select few.

Oh man, that sounds like a fantastic adventure idea. A group of characters are hired by a rich patron to delve into the depths of Z-R and document what they find.

Indeed, it is.

Not too bad. I haven't really had any time, and I definitely won't be getting the fluff done for a while, since I am really busy this weekend, and I still have to write an essay for the scholarship I got to go to Japan with, and I have to prepare for school next year, where I am going to college during highschool, so it is really busy in general. However, this is really my only project right now, so it shouldn't be too long.

Whelp, no rush. This isn't going anywhere or anything.

I've been considering setting up an Obsidian Portal wiki page for the setting (and for any games I might run in the world). If I do so, would anyone have an interest in such a thing?

[unosarta]

Agreed on the hivemind, and good spelling catch. You can really tell when I make material while tired. My spelling/grammar goes to hell.

Same here.

Uh huh ok then.

I expect an answer sometime. I just wasn't expecting to stump you.

Well, every man decides for himself, but generalizing by culture...

Intolians dislike the idea (dirty short hive nonhumans uuugh) in general. The idea of giving your mind to someone else is repugnant.

I see. Is that opinion supported by the church? Speaking of which, just thought of this, does the Intolian church have scriptures? Holy texts?

Khavghotani dislike the idea, on the sheer basis of a loss of individuality. They feel that a hivemind detracts from the free spirit and nature the goblinoids hold so dear (the fact that it really doesn't do that doesn't seem to matter).

Interesting.

Alykandorians dislike it, for the same basic reasons as the Khavghotani, and because they fear a loss of security (after all, someone else in their minds means they aren't as secure as they once were).

Another interesting idea. Are they similarly afraid of telepathy?

Orlyndolians, surprisingly enough, dislike the hivemind, but more because it actually uses a lesser form of telepathy than any real hate of the idea. Illithid telepathy is far more powerful and advanced than dwarven telepathy and since the hivemind works with the latter, not the former, to illithids it's fairly unsettling. Still, they tend to regard the concept with mild interest and most illithids would try it at least once, just for the experience.

How does the Illithid telepathy interact with the dwarven hivemind?

Trepek are neutral, seeing it as merely another useful tool in daily life.

Of course.

True elves react poorly to the suggestion, but given their wild and untamed spirits, that's not surprising.

Of course.

Sure, fairy tales and wild stories, but cold hard facts are the purview of a select few.

Interesting. How do people (in general, of course) react to those select few people?

Whelp, no rush. This isn't going anywhere or anything.

I've been considering setting up an Obsidian Portal wiki page for the setting (and for any games I might run in the world). If I do so, would anyone have an interest in such a thing?

I guess not. Still, I am almost halfway done with the abilities themselves (this is why I love working with material that already has abilities; transferring said abilities into 3.5 is my only job). The fluff is going to be the harder part. I am thinking of posting one version, with the Z-R fluff in this thread, and another version with more general fluff in the main homebrew thread.

What is Obsidian Portal?

[arguskos]

I expect an answer sometime. I just wasn't expecting to stump you.

Well, the dwarves would look down upon a dwarf/true elf pairing, simply because the resulting child (if there even is one, biological compatibility in Z-R is not what it seems to be elsewhere) would almost certainly be excluded from the hivemind.

The true elves would likewise frown upon such a liaison, because it reminds them too much of the Schism of ancient days. While the Schism was based on technological grounds, there are parallels that can be drawn between that event and an unusual biological pairing (what if a child is produced? What if there are more of them? The race could fracture *again* and that's not acceptable).

I see. Is that opinion supported by the church? Speaking of which, just thought of this, does the Intolian church have scriptures? Holy texts?

Each individual deity has it's own line (they're fairly easy to figure out, based on the church), but in general, yes, the overarching Intolian Church maintains the line that dwarven hiveminds are unnatural abominations that no human should participate in.

Also, dear god yes they do have scriptures, texts, hymns, all that crap. Each of the ten deities has their own such writings.

Another interesting idea. Are they similarly afraid of telepathy?

No. Lengthy exposure to illithid telepathy has indicated that telepathy is one way, which I should explain further. In Z-R, telepathy is one-way, sender-->receiver. Unless the receiver has telepathy, the sender cannot receive a message back. There's no "mind reading" without appropriate magic. Now, special training *does* exist for illithids that can give them the ability to scan surface thoughts, but even then the effect is limited.

The hivemind is not like that. A dwarven hivemind is communal and two-way, with feelings and impressions moving both ways at all times.

How does the Illithid telepathy interact with the dwarven hivemind?

Not well. Illithid telepathy is what I call "complete". Illithids telepathy works at a high level, transmitting visual images, emotions, high and low level intellectual concepts, mathematical data, sensory impressions, everything. However, this transmission is exceedingly dense and very fast, making illithid telepathy difficult (but not impossible) to understand. Most people unused to it get headaches from illithid telepathic communication. Finally, note that due to the varying thought processes of languages, illithid telepathy works only if both the sender and receiver know a similar language. The language structure helps the sending illithid to "format" the message and helps the receiver make sense of it all. In essence, the language serves as the grammar of the telepathy.

Dwarven telepathy, by contrast, is "incomplete". It transmits only emotions, sensory impressions, and perhaps visual images. Dwarven telepathy is very weak and easy to decode. Since it sends things that everyone can understand with no effort, it transcends language barriers, but it's very basic and doesn't give the full picture.

Hiveminds, being based on this "lesser" telepathy, can't interpret illithid telepathic communication. In fact, too much from the illithids can overwhelm and disrupt dwarven hiveminds. Sages theorize that the dwarves only developed their talents recently and so their telepathy is weak, compared to the illithids, who've had thousands of years to hone their mental power.

Interesting. How do people (in general, of course) react to those select few people?

Well, those folks are seasoned adventurers, explores, and sages, so like they'd respond to such folks normally.

I guess not. Still, I am almost halfway done with the abilities themselves (this is why I love working with material that already has abilities; transferring said abilities into 3.5 is my only job). The fluff is going to be the harder part. I am thinking of posting one version, with the Z-R fluff in this thread, and another version with more general fluff in the main homebrew thread.

Whatever works man.

What is Obsidian Portal?

A site that lets you make your own wikis, specifically for on-going campaigns in tabletop RPGs. Very interesting stuff. Check out their site (google Obsidian Portal).

[unosarta]

Well, the dwarves would look down upon a dwarf/true elf pairing, simply because the resulting child (if there even is one, biological compatibility in Z-R is not what it seems to be elsewhere) would almost certainly be excluded from the hivemind.

Interesting. Has there been a historical precedent for this kind of thing?

The true elves would likewise frown upon such a liaison, because it reminds them too much of the Schism of ancient days. While the Schism was based on technological grounds, there are parallels that can be drawn between that event and an unusual biological pairing (what if a child is produced? What if there are more of them? The race could fracture *again* and that's not acceptable).

What is the Schism?

How do other races (the above ground ones) view cross racial love?

Each individual deity has it's own line (they're fairly easy to figure out, based on the church), but in general, yes, the overarching Intolian Church maintains the line that dwarven hiveminds are unnatural abominations that no human should participate in.

Do they view them as such an abomination that they should be destroyed, or simply not care enough?

Also, dear god yes they do have scriptures, texts, hymns, all that crap. Each of the ten deities has their own such writings.

Interesting. Are they commonly used among peasants or "the common man" so to speak? If not, who uses them most commonly?

No. Lengthy exposure to illithid telepathy has indicated that telepathy is one way, which I should explain further. In Z-R, telepathy is one-way, sender-->receiver. Unless the receiver has telepathy, the sender cannot receive a message back. There's no "mind reading" without appropriate magic. Now, special training *does* exist for illithids that can give them the ability to scan surface thoughts, but even then the effect is limited.

The hivemind is not like that. A dwarven hivemind is communal and two-way, with feelings and impressions moving both ways at all times.

Interesting. Does all telepathy (besides the hiveminds, obviously) work that way?

Not well. Illithid telepathy is what I call "complete". Illithids telepathy works at a high level, transmitting visual images, emotions, high and low level intellectual concepts, mathematical data, sensory impressions, everything. However, this transmission is exceedingly dense and very fast, making illithid telepathy difficult (but not impossible) to understand. Most people unused to it get headaches from illithid telepathic communication. Finally, note that due to the varying thought processes of languages, illithid telepathy works only if both the sender and receiver know a similar language. The language structure helps the sending illithid to "format" the message and helps the receiver make sense of it all. In essence, the language serves as the grammar of the telepathy.

Dwarven telepathy, by contrast, is "incomplete". It transmits only emotions, sensory impressions, and perhaps visual images. Dwarven telepathy is very weak and easy to decode. Since it sends things that everyone can understand with no effort, it transcends language barriers, but it's very basic and doesn't give the full picture.

Hiveminds, being based on this "lesser" telepathy, can't interpret illithid telepathic communication. In fact, too much from the illithids can overwhelm and disrupt dwarven hiveminds. Sages theorize that the dwarves only developed their talents recently and so their telepathy is weak, compared to the illithids, who've had thousands of years to hone their mental power.

Interesting as well. Does all telepathy work like the illithids, where it requires a language that both creatures understand in order to communicate? Similarly, does all telepathy have that effect on the hivemind, or is the illithid telepathy just especially strong? Are there any mechanical differences between illithid telepathy and other forms of telepathy (the non-dwarf forms, that is)?

Well, those folks are seasoned adventurers, explores, and sages, so like they'd respond to such folks normally.

Makes sense.

Whatever works man.

My main problem as of right now is the reloading stuff for the firearms. I am not too sure how it really works, and as such don't really know how to make abilities for it.

A site that lets you make your own wikis, specifically for on-going campaigns in tabletop RPGs. Very interesting stuff. Check out their site (google Obsidian Portal).

Coolio.

[arguskos]

Interesting. Has there been a historical precedent for this kind of thing?

For half-breeds between Lattice races? No.

What is the Schism?

*sigh* I know I've covered this before, and there's references all over the place. The true elves, in the ancient past, broke into two camps. The Technologists and the Classicalists. They waged a horrible civil war, and the Technologists lost. As punishment, they were exiled from the Lattice and forced to live above ground. They became the pale elves of Alykandor.

How do other races (the above ground ones) view cross racial love?

...why do you want to know? I mean, I *can* answer, but I'm curious as to your desire to know such things.

Also, define "race". Inter-goblinoid relations are fine, since they're genetically compatible (due to coming from the same stock originally; children are one or the other, not half-breeds).

Do they view them as such an abomination that they should be destroyed, or simply not care enough?

Remember who we're talking about here. The Intolians believe ALL non-humans must be cleansed from Zaaman-Rul, it's just when. At the moment, the dwarves are low on the list, but they're on there.

Interesting. Are they commonly used among peasants or "the common man" so to speak? If not, who uses them most commonly?

Everyone has a small book of common prayers and axioms from the deities they venerate most (for example, Xanteld citizens likely have a book of Donblas's mantras, due to being in a prison city with a high worship rate of the Justice Maker). More complex and detailed writings are held in churches with the clergy. Travelling clergymen likely will have a "bible" for their god.

Interesting. Does all telepathy (besides the hiveminds, obviously) work that way?

There are no other telepathy types. Magical telepathy works like the illithids. In this, it is the dwarves who are the exception.

Interesting as well. Does all telepathy work like the illithids, where it requires a language that both creatures understand in order to communicate? Similarly, does all telepathy have that effect on the hivemind, or is the illithid telepathy just especially strong? Are there any mechanical differences between illithid telepathy and other forms of telepathy (the non-dwarf forms, that is)?

See above. Dwarven telepathy is the exception to the rule here.

As for magical telepathy's effect on dwarven hiveminds, yes. It is disruptive. Of course, you can always just not use it with the hivemind.

My main problem as of right now is the reloading stuff for the firearms. I am not too sure how it really works, and as such don't really know how to make abilities for it.

I believe I gave rules for it, didn't I? If not, assume move action, with Rapid Reload reducing that to a free. That's for a new clip, btws, not one round.

Coolio.

The trick would be getting players to use it.

[unosarta]

For half-breeds between Lattice races? No.

Okay.

*sigh* I know I've covered this before, and there's references all over the place. The true elves, in the ancient past, broke into two camps. The Technologists and the Classicalists. They waged a horrible civil war, and the Technologists lost. As punishment, they were exiled from the Lattice and forced to live above ground. They became the pale elves of Alykandor.

Sounds familiar, but I don't remember any specific time. Since I actually read the True Elf section, I know it isn't in there, so please don't blame me for things that are really old that I haven't been thinking or hearing about lately. My memory isn't that amazing.

...why do you want to know? I mean, I *can* answer, but I'm curious as to your desire to know such things.

Also, define "race". Inter-goblinoid relations are fine, since they're genetically compatible (due to coming from the same stock originally; children are one or the other, not half-breeds).

Several reasons; a) there will be players who will want to roleplay that kind of thing. And in some cases, it will be entirely within character. If there is no precedent for how they are treated by society, the DM will have to come up with something probably spur of the moment, which means less thinking it out, less logic involved, more and more confusion and multiple ways that they are treated by different DMs. b) it is an interesting topic that I think should be discussed, since it will come up for players more than likely, and that means that us talking about it now will help you decide your stance on it, which will help said players who decide they might want to play this in the future. c) to reiterate above, it is an interesting topic. Forbidden love is a very common narrative device, and I could see some cultures going one way about it, some going another, some not caring at all, some already having a precedence for it. But you are the creator, and as such I want to hear your opinion on it since you are the one who has the most first hand knowledge with these cultures, and you are the only one who can tell for sure how you think it will go.

Remember who we're talking about here. The Intolians believe ALL non-humans must be cleansed from Zaaman-Rul, it's just when. At the moment, the dwarves are low on the list, but they're on there.

Good point.

Everyone has a small book of common prayers and axioms from the deities they venerate most (for example, Xanteld citizens likely have a book of Donblas's mantras, due to being in a prison city with a high worship rate of the Justice Maker). More complex and detailed writings are held in churches with the clergy. Travelling clergymen likely will have a "bible" for their god.

Interesting.

There are no other telepathy types. Magical telepathy works like the illithids. In this, it is the dwarves who are the exception.

What about racial telepathy that is not magical in nature? I am fairly sure it occurs somewhere in a creature or race.

See above. Dwarven telepathy is the exception to the rule here.

As for magical telepathy's effect on dwarven hiveminds, yes. It is disruptive. Of course, you can always just not use it with the hivemind.

So magical telepathy functions in the same way as illithid telepathy, with the bursts of incredibly dense information?

I believe I gave rules for it, didn't I? If not, assume move action, with Rapid Reload reducing that to a free. That's for a new clip, btws, not one round.

I think you did, but having those rules work with the class is... interesting. I am trying to make it work with all ranged weapons, and not just guns, since that is the way they are described in the book, and it makes mechanical sense as well, but the reloading thing is really frustrating, because they are described as being able to reload quickly, and I want to make their abilities more effective than the norm, but its difficult sometimes, especially when a higher level ability I am working on is eclipsed by a feat. I think I found a solution while typing this out, so... thanks?

The trick would be getting players to use it.

Well, there seems to be a sizable source of people on the site itself, so that might not be a problem?

[arguskos]

Sounds familiar, but I don't remember any specific time. Since I actually read the True Elf section, I know it isn't in there, so please don't blame me for things that are really old that I haven't been thinking or hearing about lately. My memory isn't that amazing.

More than I'm grouchy cause it's nearly 3 AM here. 'snot you, 'sme being tired.

Several reasons; a) there will be players who will want to roleplay that kind of thing. And in some cases, it will be entirely within character. If there is no precedent for how they are treated by society, the DM will have to come up with something probably spur of the moment, which means less thinking it out, less logic involved, more and more confusion and multiple ways that they are treated by different DMs. b) it is an interesting topic that I think should be discussed, since it will come up for players more than likely, and that means that us talking about it now will help you decide your stance on it, which will help said players who decide they might want to play this in the future. c) to reiterate above, it is an interesting topic. Forbidden love is a very common narrative device, and I could see some cultures going one way about it, some going another, some not caring at all, some already having a precedence for it. But you are the creator, and as such I want to hear your opinion on it since you are the one who has the most first hand knowledge with these cultures, and you are the only one who can tell for sure how you think it will go.

Well, ok then.

Intolar regards all humanxanythingelse relations as forbidden, and in fact regards such liaisons as a betrayal of the Empire and of humanity. As you can imagine, that doesn't go down well.

The Khavghotani don't care really. Note that between goblinoids, there's no issues genetically, since they all came from the same stock. However, there are no half-breeds, any offspring are one or the other race, randomly determined.

The pale elves dislike interspecies relations, but won't actively move against it. It's more frowned on than anything else. Think 1960s interracial relations in the United States. Most folks accepted that it happened, but didn't really approve of it (regardless of our opinion on that era's ideas, that's what it was like). Same deal with Alykandor. They accept that it happens, but don't condone it.

Illithid reproduction is non-sexual and illithids cannot engage in sexual relations, so they have no opinion. Same with the trepek.

What about racial telepathy that is not magical in nature? I am fairly sure it occurs somewhere in a creature or race.

There isn't any I can think of. Only example I know off the top of my head are the qualnargan, and their telepathy is illithid-style.

Outsiders are confined to the Planes, remember? They're irrelevant for such discussions.

So magical telepathy functions in the same way as illithid telepathy, with the bursts of incredibly dense information?

Yes.

I think you did, but having those rules work with the class is... interesting. I am trying to make it work with all ranged weapons, and not just guns, since that is the way they are described in the book, and it makes mechanical sense as well, but the reloading thing is really frustrating, because they are described as being able to reload quickly, and I want to make their abilities more effective than the norm, but its difficult sometimes, especially when a higher level ability I am working on is eclipsed by a feat. I think I found a solution while typing this out, so... thanks?

Oh. Um, sorry. Didn't mean to obstruct class features or anything.

Well, there seems to be a sizable source of people on the site itself, so that might not be a problem?

I meant more "getting MY players to use it". I have an established IRL group.

[unosarta]

More than I'm grouchy cause it's nearly 3 AM here. 'snot you, 'sme being tired.

Okey-dokey. *snicker* You said "snot," teehee.

Well, ok then.

Intolar regards all humanxanythingelse relations as forbidden, and in fact regards such liaisons as a betrayal of the Empire and of humanity. As you can imagine, that doesn't go down well.

Interesting. Has there been a history, or no (since it is so obviously forbidden?).

The Khavghotani don't care really. Note that between goblinoids, there's no issues genetically, since they all came from the same stock. However, there are no half-breeds, any offspring are one or the other race, randomly determined.

I wasn't talking about hoo-ha, dude, I was talking about love. I honestly doubt many DMs will allow that kind of thing to happen in their game, but love itself is an interesting character facet that can be explored maturely and with
dignity for all parties. I was wondering more about the societal implications of cross species love, rather than cross species hoo-ha. Sorry if I didn't convey that very well.

The pale elves dislike interspecies relations, but won't actively move against it. It's more frowned on than anything else. Think 1960s interracial relations in the United States. Most folks accepted that it happened, but didn't really approve of it (regardless of our opinion on that era's ideas, that's what it was like). Same deal with Alykandor. They accept that it happens, but don't condone it.

Interesting.

Illithid reproduction is non-sexual and illithids cannot engage in sexual relations, so they have no opinion. Same with the trepek.

But what about love itself? Like, do the illithids just not feel that emotion? Were the trepek just not designed with that level of emotional involvement?

There isn't any I can think of. Only example I know off the top of my head are the qualnargan, and their telepathy is illithid-style.

I thought there was another monster that had a more mundane telepathy. Oh well, probably thinking of a monster I made.

Yes.

Interesting. Is it just as difficult for creatures to understand? Are there any mechanical aspects to mirror this flavor?

Oh. Um, sorry. Didn't mean to obstruct class features or anything.

No problem.

I meant more "getting MY players to use it". I have an established IRL group.

Ah. Well, telling them that using it is in their best interest for any campaign involving the setting should be all it takes, and if they don't use it, then it is their fault. And honestly, I would prefer as a player to discover things about the setting on my own, rather than from a wiki.

Also, do you have any representations of Dwarves, images perhaps? Anything that you thinks matches them best? Because I am writing the Hivemaster class right now, and I can't find a good picture of them. Similarly, are there any physical descriptions for the true elves or dwarves, or any of the other races?

Also, are there going to be Dwarf and True Elf specific base classes? Because I am trying to figure out the entry classes for the Hivemaster Prestige Class, and I have just no idea at all.

[arguskos]

Interesting. Has there been a history, or no (since it is so obviously forbidden?).

Isolated cases, but realistically, no.

I wasn't talking about hoo-ha, dude, I was talking about love. I honestly doubt many DMs will allow that kind of thing to happen in their game, but love itself is an interesting character facet that can be explored maturely and with
dignity for all parties. I was wondering more about the societal implications of cross species love, rather than cross species hoo-ha. Sorry if I didn't convey that very well.

1. The word sex isn't banned on the forums.

2. I am aware of what you meant, and stand by my statement. The Khavghotani don't care. As far as they're concerned, it's "live and let live" territory. I only mentioned the genetics because with the goblinoids it's actually a viable question (given their curious racial origins, someone was bound to ask if they can interbreed without issues).

But what about love itself? Like, do the illithids just not feel that emotion? Were the trepek just not designed with that level of emotional involvement?

Illithids, while not actually "emotionless", don't experience or understand emotions quite like you and I do. Their nervous systems are complex and sensitive enough that emotional reactions can be measured and controlled by an act of will. Illithids only feel emotion if they wish it and few do (though of course some experience emotion, it's a very personal decision). Given that love in every species is directly tied to reproduction in some way (as a genetic imperative anyways, feelings of love tend to be caused by a deep-seated desire to reproduce) and that illithids don't reproduce in that fashion, no, illithids don't experience love or really even understand the idea.

Trepek have been known to develop complex emotional reactions to events and individuals, but again, with a lack of reproduction, they've little reason to feel love. Camaraderie, sure, love, less so.

I thought there was another monster that had a more mundane telepathy. Oh well, probably thinking of a monster I made.

I'm sure there are, I just can't think of any atm. In any case, they will have "true" telepathy, a la illithids.

Interesting. Is it just as difficult for creatures to understand? Are there any mechanical aspects to mirror this flavor?

No, no mechanical aspects. That doesn't seem very fair. While it WOULD create excellent immersion to give some minor penalty for non-accustomed receivers and include an acclimatization period, it's just mechanical clutter. At some point, I've gotta just say "this is the line", and that level of nitpicking is it.

I'd looooooove to have mechanical tidbits for all that, but it just doesn't add enough to matter.

Ah. Well, telling them that using it is in their best interest for any campaign involving the setting should be all it takes, and if they don't use it, then it is their fault. And honestly, I would prefer as a player to discover things about the setting on my own, rather than from a wiki.

I agree with your perspective about discovery, but having the wiki lets us update everything on the fly, so we don't forget things, and gives me an easy access location to refer to in the future for information about the setting.

I'll talk to the prospective players and see what comes of it. If it happens, I'll let people here know.

Also, do you have any representations of Dwarves, images perhaps? Anything that you thinks matches them best? Because I am writing the Hivemaster class right now, and I can't find a good picture of them. Similarly, are there any physical descriptions for the true elves or dwarves, or any of the other races?

No, I don't, actually. Dwarves and true elves have been difficult to find images for, simply because they're so against type in Z-R. True elves are drow anywhere else (literally, they're the spitting image) but pretty much every drow image in existence is EVILZZZ so that's not helpful. The dwarves are pretty rough as well, cause let's face it: how often have you seen dwarves farming in underground caverns in art?

Also, are there going to be Dwarf and True Elf specific base classes? Because I am trying to figure out the entry classes for the Hivemaster Prestige Class, and I have just no idea at all.

Ideally, eventually yes. At the moment, no. Hivemaster sounds like a caster entry. Perhaps a Ranger entry. Not sure.

[unosarta]

Isolated cases, but realistically, no.

Makes sense.

1. The word sex isn't banned on the forums.

2. I am aware of what you meant, and stand by my statement. The Khavghotani don't care. As far as they're concerned, it's "live and let live" territory. I only mentioned the genetics because with the goblinoids it's actually a viable question (given their curious racial origins, someone was bound to ask if they can interbreed without issues).

I know, but I don't want to gain any ire from mods and stuff for discussing topics otherwise off-limits, even in this context.

That is also interesting.

Illithids, while not actually "emotionless", don't experience or understand emotions quite like you and I do. Their nervous systems are complex and sensitive enough that emotional reactions can be measured and controlled by an act of will. Illithids only feel emotion if they wish it and few do (though of course some experience emotion, it's a very personal decision). Given that love in every species is directly tied to reproduction in some way (as a genetic imperative anyways, feelings of love tend to be caused by a deep-seated desire to reproduce) and that illithids don't reproduce in that fashion, no, illithids don't experience love or really even understand the idea.

Would it not be possible at all for an Illithid to be able to feel love, even without the reproductive need? OH MAN, I WOULD LOVE TO EXPLORE THIS IN CHARACTER. I never post in all caps on this forum. That shows you how excited I am for such a character concept.

Trepek have been known to develop complex emotional reactions to events and individuals, but again, with a lack of reproduction, they've little reason to feel love. Camaraderie, sure, love, less so.

SEE ABOVE.

I'm sure there are, I just can't think of any atm. In any case, they will have "true" telepathy, a la illithids.

Okey-dokey.

No, no mechanical aspects. That doesn't seem very fair. While it WOULD create excellent immersion to give some minor penalty for non-accustomed receivers and include an acclimatization period, it's just mechanical clutter. At some point, I've gotta just say "this is the line", and that level of nitpicking is it.

I'd looooooove to have mechanical tidbits for all that, but it just doesn't add enough to matter.

Yeah, I can understand that.

I agree with your perspective about discovery, but having the wiki lets us update everything on the fly, so we don't forget things, and gives me an easy access location to refer to in the future for information about the setting.

I'll talk to the prospective players and see what comes of it. If it happens, I'll let people here know.

Excellent point.

No, I don't, actually. Dwarves and true elves have been difficult to find images for, simply because they're so against type in Z-R. True elves are drow anywhere else (literally, they're the spitting image) but pretty much every drow image in existence is EVILZZZ so that's not helpful. The dwarves are pretty rough as well, cause let's face it: how often have you seen dwarves farming in underground caverns in art?

Yeah, it was kind of frustrating for me, since "Dwarf Mindbender" would work pretty much exactly as I imagine them, but there are no good results for it anywhere. :frustrated:

Ideally, eventually yes. At the moment, no. Hivemaster sounds like a caster entry. Perhaps a Ranger entry. Not sure.

Okay. Caster seems like it would work, and makes sense. Do the dwarves use psionics? Because that would be another good entry point.

[arguskos]

I know, but I don't want to gain any ire from mods and stuff for discussing topics otherwise off-limits, even in this context.

I doubt they mind. If they do, they can let us know.

Would it not be possible at all for an Illithid to be able to feel love, even without the reproductive need? OH MAN, I WOULD LOVE TO EXPLORE THIS IN CHARACTER. I never post in all caps on this forum. That shows you how excited I am for such a character concept.

SEE ABOVE.

Hmm. Illithids could, conceivably, find a method to experience love, but it would almost certainly not be first-hand. The easiest method would be via mindsculpting, since that subjects the audience to whatever the individual being sculpted feels at the moment, so if you had a master mindsculptor sculpt someone with enough fortitude to not only withstand the intrusive nature of mindsculpting (which by the by, is a pretty morally gray activity) but to actively focus his emotional state into a state of love, then yes, you could sculpt the feeling of love. That'd be tough to set up, though it's probably possible. To actually experience it first-hand would be dangerous, since illithids aren't biologically designed to experience certain things (love, unbridled rage, similar overwhelming emotions that can override logical thought), but I guess it would be possible, perhaps as the conclusion of a character development arc.

Trepek, unlike the illithids, don't even have a method to experience what they're missing. It's not that they couldn't, but that they have nothing to compare it to and so wouldn't know love if it came up and smacked them in the jaw. I see no reason why a trepek couldn't develop a more nuanced emotional awareness though.

Yeah, it was kind of frustrating for me, since "Dwarf Mindbender" would work pretty much exactly as I imagine them, but there are no good results for it anywhere. :frustrated:

Try dwarf telepath or dwarf psychic?

Okay. Caster seems like it would work, and makes sense. Do the dwarves use psionics? Because that would be another good entry point.

Yeah, they probably would, given their natural mental affinity. They use standard magic as well.

[unosarta]

I doubt they mind. If they do, they can let us know.

I suppose.

Hmm. Illithids could, conceivably, find a method to experience love, but it would almost certainly not be first-hand. The easiest method would be via mindsculpting, since that subjects the audience to whatever the individual being sculpted feels at the moment, so if you had a master mindsculptor sculpt someone with enough fortitude to not only withstand the intrusive nature of mindsculpting (which by the by, is a pretty morally gray activity) but to actively focus his emotional state into a state of love, then yes, you could sculpt the feeling of love. That'd be tough to set up, though it's probably possible. To actually experience it first-hand would be dangerous, since illithids aren't biologically designed to experience certain things (love, unbridled rage, similar overwhelming emotions that can override logical thought), but I guess it would be possible, perhaps as the conclusion of a character development arc.

Still, it would be absolutely fascinating for an illithid character, especially if he worked a lot with people who did feel really intense and really passionate love, and wanted to understand their emotions. Even in a scientific experiment sort of way, it could be absolutely fascinating.

What do you mean "aren't biologically designed"? Like, their minds cannot handle intense and overwhelming emotions in general? I guess that sort of makes sense.

Trepek, unlike the illithids, don't even have a method to experience what they're missing. It's not that they couldn't, but that they have nothing to compare it to and so wouldn't know love if it came up and smacked them in the jaw. I see no reason why a trepek couldn't develop a more nuanced emotional awareness though.

It could be interesting for a trepek character, though. Given that they are at the very least sentient, one could imagine a trepek wondering what they are missing out on. That could make for some interesting character development, introspection, etc etc.

Try dwarf telepath or dwarf psychic?

Good plan.

Yeah, they probably would, given their natural mental affinity. They use standard magic as well.

Maybe I should do another dual entry?

[arguskos]

Still, it would be absolutely fascinating for an illithid character, especially if he worked a lot with people who did feel really intense and really passionate love, and wanted to understand their emotions. Even in a scientific experiment sort of way, it could be absolutely fascinating.

Good thing to explore in play.

What do you mean "aren't biologically designed"? Like, their minds cannot handle intense and overwhelming emotions in general? I guess that sort of makes sense.

I thought I'd mentioned this. Maybe not. The illithids are not native to Z-R. In the very very ancient past (like, pre-Catastrophe era civilizations arose), the Illithids were mighty sorcerer-kings who inhabited the original third planet of the Zar system (Zar is the sun's name). When the Fathers arose on Golenih, the illithids waged war on them, and lost. Their planet was sundered into tiny fragments, now called the Tears of Life as an asteroid belt. They had long since biologically engineered themselves to a state they considered perfection. It was they who seeded the illithids alive today deep in Z-R's crust, where they awoke some thousand years after the Catastrophe.

The illithids were crafted to not feel certain emotions judged dangerous, such as love, hatred, rage, any emotion so extreme that it can override logic and intellectual decision. Now, that was over 50,000 years ago, so the work of those ancient sorcerer-kings has degraded over time, and the possibility of illithids experiencing such powerful emotions has begun to reemerge, but just barely.

It could be interesting for a trepek character, though. Given that they are at the very least sentient, one could imagine a trepek wondering what they are missing out on. That could make for some interesting character development, introspection, etc etc.

Absolutely.

Maybe I should do another dual entry?

Worth looking into. Maybe just pick something and run with it? Dunno, I leave it up to you.

[unosarta]

Good thing to explore in play.

Absolutely.

I thought I'd mentioned this. Maybe not. The illithids are not native to Z-R. In the very very ancient past (like, pre-Catastrophe era civilizations arose), the Illithids were mighty sorcerer-kings who inhabited the original third planet of the Zar system (Zar is the sun's name). When the Fathers arose on Golenih, the illithids waged war on them, and lost. Their planet was sundered into tiny fragments, now called the Tears of Life as an asteroid belt. They had long since biologically engineered themselves to a state they considered perfection. It was they who seeded the illithids alive today deep in Z-R's crust, where they awoke some thousand years after the Catastrophe.

The illithids were crafted to not feel certain emotions judged dangerous, such as love, hatred, rage, any emotion so extreme that it can override logic and intellectual decision. Now, that was over 50,000 years ago, so the work of those ancient sorcerer-kings has degraded over time, and the possibility of illithids experiencing such powerful emotions has begun to reemerge, but just barely.

Maybe you did? I don't remember, certainly. Interesting backstory. Are the illithids aware of this? Is it common knowledge among the sentient races of aboveworld Z-R?

Worth looking into. Maybe just pick something and run with it? Dunno, I leave it up to you.

Okey-dokey.

[arguskos]

Maybe you did? I don't remember, certainly. Interesting backstory. Are the illithids aware of this? Is it common knowledge among the sentient races of aboveworld Z-R?

Yes, the elder brains are, but the average Orlyndolian isn't, and no, it's not common knowledge at all.

[unosarta]

Yes, the elder brains are, but the average Orlyndolian isn't, and no, it's not common knowledge at all.

I like the added intrigue of only the elder brains knowing.

[arguskos]

I like the added intrigue of only the elder brains knowing.

Mostly, there's little reason to tell anyone else. It serves no purpose, and most illithids don't even care about their past THAT far back. As far as they know/care, they evolved from cave-dwelling psionic squids that eventually gained a kind of symbiosis with some now extinct humanoid. Note that this is actually true, it's just where/when it happened that isn't.

[unosarta]

Mostly, there's little reason to tell anyone else. It serves no purpose, and most illithids don't even care about their past THAT far back. As far as they know/care, they evolved from cave-dwelling psionic squids that eventually gained a kind of symbiosis with some now extinct humanoid. Note that this is actually true, it's just where/when it happened that isn't.

Wait, so if they were seeded deep in the core of Z-R, what happened when half was blown away? Were they already released by that time, or did a large number die? In addition, were they seeded in the areas of the middle or upper lattice, or closer to the actual core, where Nidhogger would be?

[arguskos]

Wait, so if they were seeded deep in the core of Z-R, what happened when half was blown away? Were they already released by that time, or did a large number die? In addition, were they seeded in the areas of the middle or upper lattice, or closer to the actual core, where Nidhogger would be?

On the timeline, they were seeded around -15,000 OM. There were one or two survivors of the Sundering (the event that destroyed their planet and created the Tears of Life in -41,000 OM). Those few sorcerer-king survivors boded their time and waited for the right moment to act. The Fathers entered hibernation, the Cataclysm occurred, and the sorcerer-kings knew the time was right. They used the remnants of their technology and magic to seal away a created set of illithids in a cavern in the Middle Lattice, beneath what is now Orlyndol. These illithids were programmed with memories, a society, everything they'd need to never suspect their true origins. The great work done, the surviving sorcerer-kings faded away, pleased that their legacy lived on. Today, none of the original illithids are awake, and only two even live (both found a way to cheat death, one via magic and the other technology, but neither are active due to their great age).

[unosarta]

On the timeline, they were seeded around -15,000 OM. There were one or two survivors of the Sundering (the event that destroyed their planet and created the Tears of Life in -41,000 OM). Those few sorcerer-king survivors boded their time and waited for the right moment to act. The Fathers entered hibernation, the Cataclysm occurred, and the sorcerer-kings knew the time was right. They used the remnants of their technology and magic to seal away a created set of illithids in a cavern in the Middle Lattice, beneath what is now Orlyndol. These illithids were programmed with memories, a society, everything they'd need to never suspect their true origins. The great work done, the surviving sorcerer-kings faded away, pleased that their legacy lived on. Today, none of the original illithids are awake, and only two even live (both found a way to cheat death, one via magic and the other technology, but neither are active due to their great age).

Iiiiinteresting. So, did they come into contact in those caves with the Dwarves or the True Elves? Were they seen by said underground denizens?

[arguskos]

Iiiiinteresting. So, did they come into contact in those caves with the Dwarves or the True Elves? Were they seen by said underground denizens?

No. Their progenitors made sure they would not be interfered with, and erected mighty barriers to ensure the illithids developed along lines that suited them and did so without interference from anyone else.

[arguskos]

Gogo double post heresy! I've been thinking (dangerous, I know) and was curious if a more full description of each race, ala PHB would be useful. If so, please lemme know.

Also, I've been pondering ways to get this project some fresh attention. Any ideas on that front?

[TravelLog]

An in-depth racial guide would be great, especially for eventual DMs. But as for gaining interest, I'd recommend posting in the regular Homebrew design area since a lot more people visit that part of the site than do this sub-subsection.

[Fable Wright]

Yeah, +1 to the above. Full-on racial guides make the races come more alive, and we can see something about their society, distinct from what it says in the country information. Especially pertinent when it comes to the Khavghotani. For more interest, I think that making a thread with the different racial stats and fluff in the normal homebrewing forum, with a link back here, would probably generate the most interest. Possibly another thread for the weapons, later on.

[Omeganaut]

Since you are deviating signifiacntly from the standard D&D races, yes, I would do an entire write-up, with fluff and crunch.

[Zetapup]

Yay for fourthing the race description thing. It would be handy for if I DM another game in this setting.

[arguskos]

Yay for fourthing the race description thing. It would be handy for if I DM another game in this setting.

Another? You ran one already?! I haven't even done that! How'd it go?

Also, Races of Warfare is up.

[Zetapup]

It went quite well, until the end. The player was an Intolarian non-xenophobe who had robbed from the Resistance and then was sent on a quest to unite the tribes of Khavghotan so they could overthrow the Intolarian government, because they thought it was hopeless quest, any who would attempt it would perish, etc, etc. He and his trusty trepek wizard companion went off to a very small goblin tribe and the fighter challenged the leader to a fight for control of the tribe (this was before I asked about humans gaining control of a Khavghotani tribe, so it's a little off from what should have happened. Oh well) He won the battle and gained control of the tribe. His first order was for a great feast, with cinnamon rolls (They were not very tasty, but again, whatever)

After a month or so of being leader of the tribe, he had conquered a kobold tribe by lighting the darkfire on fire and had also ambushed an Intolarian warband with heavy losses returning back from an attack on the devoted of the Hurd. The goblin cleric/shaman had heard that the mighty Rain Bow had reappeared and told about a riddle "Where the 2 ends of the rainbow meet, Such-and-such place can be found (I forgot the name of the place )"

He, the wizard, the cleric, the monk, and 4 rogues find the pieces of the Rain Bow and connect them, when they are transported deep into the Lattice. They arrive near a power collection station, which collects the mana in the air/ground/water, just like the one from Gunnerkrigg Court. Some loot can be found by pressing the buttons in the station, which are in an unfamiliar language. The players tried to walk away from the station, but an illusion was in place designed to keep them where they were. A power cable connecting the station to somewhere else transported the power, and was immune to spells. Eventually they figured out to walk along the cable to the wizard's tower of DOOM.

After triggering some traps and outsmarting others, the Pc's got to a Goblin's trap like the Finger's one, except with a sea cat instead of Fingers. 2 of the rogues died, but they got the key for the door and came into a natural cavern with the bodies of several dead goblins with crossbow bolts sticking out of them. The trap was not the bolts shooting from the walls, but the goblins. If their bodies were disturbed at all, their shadows would come and attack the disturbers. A little before this point, the fighter's little brother had joined the game and took control of the trepek wizard. The fighter took affront at the wizard suddenly starting to countermand some of his orders and attacked him. While under attack from the shadowy goblins. Yeah. The campaign kinda've ended after that.

The setting worked very well and was fun to DM in. I just wish all my players weren't always infighting. Gar. Evil family relations. Well, that was longer than anticipated.