[d20r] Alignment

[Fax Celestis]

So, assuming I'm removing all mechanical alignment (like removing the alignment subtypes, removing spells like detect/protection from/magic circle against evil, removing aligned cleric domains and required alignments for classes, and significant alterations to how paladins work), is there any real need for an alignment entry on a character sheet? Should it be replaced with a system like Nature/Demeanor or Virtue/Vice/Motivation? If so, should those lines only be for DM-run creatures and specifically put into place to provide quick and ready information about how an NPC or monster acts out of the box? I'm trying to figure out what role alignment will play--if any--in d20r.

[Merk]

I dislike alignment, and would rather not see any form of it featured. What interests me more are things like traits, which tie a character's personality to mechanics.

Edit: While many of the UA traits are physically descriptive, it would be more interesting to see personality traits. Faithful, greedy, curious, ambitious, etc. are all things that are cooler than "lawful good" and have some obvious mechanical implementations (e.g. faithful = +1 to knowledge religion, or whatever).

[Greenish]

If you removed alignment, it could easily defeat the point to put something similar on it's place for PCs.

The motivation and how an NPC acts are determined by the DM, so I'm not sure those would be necessary either.

[Fax Celestis]

The motivation and how an NPC acts are determined by the DM, so I'm not sure those would be necessary either.

The entire purpose of including a Virtue/Vice/Motivation line in a Monster/NPC stat description is for a DM who needs to quickly adjudicate what motivates this monster or NPC without ever having seen it before.

[Greenish]

The entire purpose of including a Virtue/Vice/Motivation line in a Monster/NPC stat description is for a DM who needs to quickly adjudicate what motivates this monster or NPC without ever having seen it before.

If you haven't seen the NPC before, how does it exist? If it's there, it's there because you put it there.

Things like "typical goblin is greedy and cowardly" are making assumptions about the setting that may or may not be correct.

[Morty]

Old D&D-style alignment needs to go, definetly, now that there're no spells or class features that need it to work. What I would consider is leaving Good, Evil, Law and Chaos as big, universal forces that have little bearing on the life of mortals but determine the way the planes turn - this way people will have an easier time playing with standard D&D cosmology using d20r rules.
As for alternatives, I don't think any are necessary; a Virtue/Vice/Motivation system wouldn't be bad as a quick-and-dirty way of determining "what is this character about" for PCs and NPCs alike, though.

[Fax Celestis]

If you haven't seen the NPC before, how does it exist?

Premade module. Book of enemies (like Exemplars of Evil).

[Eldan]

My question is still the same as in the chat:

How does a virtue or similar system help the game in any way, if there are no mechanical effects? What's the added benefit of "Virtue: Chastity/Vice: Despair" over a short paragraph describing the NPC?

[Greenish]

Premade module. Book of enemies (like Exemplars of Evil).

Well, if it's a premade specific NPC, there should be description of it's motives, morales and personality, and of course stuff set for specific setting can incorporate the setting's fluff.

I was thinking more about, say, monster entries and other such more generic stat blocks.

[Fax Celestis]

How does a virtue or similar system help the game in any way, if there are no mechanical effects? What's the added benefit of "Virtue: Chastity/Vice: Despair" over a short paragraph describing the NPC?

Brevity.

ironic white text

[Lunix Vandal]

I like Virtue/Vice/Motivation, personally. Have you read Tracy & Curtis Hickman's XDM: X-treme Dungeon Mastery, perchance? The "Players' Section" of the book makes a pretty good case for how, as a PC, establishing your V/V/M (in this case, three things a character will fight over, one he will flee from, and one he will fight to the death over) can improve the game from the "more-fun-to-play, not-entrenched-in-game-mechanics" side of things, since it can make it easier to determine how your character would (or should) normally react to a given situation.

[jmbrown]

Rename "alignment" to "affiiliation." A goblin is affiliated with war and his tribe. An adventurer is affiliated with his friends and treasure. Instead of saying "This guy is good, that guy is evil" just make a block where the players can say what the character is strongly tied to. Their personality almost always revolves around that.

[Aux-Ash]

Please bear in mind that I am not a DnD player, but might I suggest replacing the alignment with three categories:

1. Trait
2. Flaw
3. Creed

The first one would describe a positive trait of the character, something that is a strength of their character and that is perhaps their most notable quirk of character.
Flaw would describe a weakness of character, something they have problem with controlling or dififculty resisting. Perhaps they are greedy or plain lazy? Something like that.
The final thing, creed, determines what sort of governing rules this character swears himself too. What values he has been brought up to adhere to and respect, what code of honour he follows and such. Could be a religion, could be a philosophy, could be a certain set of traditions.

So we could have a brave but naive person who follows the creed of the sun god. Or a highly individualistic but ruthless person following the creed of the Dark God of Doom. Or a determined but wrathful barbarian following the traditions of his clan.
It could also, if you wish, be used as a quick description of a race. The typical goblin could be cunning, but greedy and adhere to the creed of the goblin god.

If you wish you could put some morale bonuses to the system, that a DM could use to reward or affect his players with. So that if you pick the creed of the sun god and it requires you to perform a certain service every now and then, you could recieve this bonus by doing just that. Or if you live up to the trait of your character or give in to your weakness.