[4e] But I LIKE minions!

[Zaq]

So, it's my turn to GM for our round-robin 4e game. We're level 7, and a standard four-person group with each role represented. However, I'm finding that I'm having a little bit of trouble with the encounter design.

See, we have a Wizard. And this Wizard has Enlarge Spell and Orb of Imposition. So his first action every encounter is to cast an enlarged and Orb-augmented Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation, which creates some enormously large party-friendly area of no-roll-required minion death. (The initial hit requires an attack roll, but it also automatically creates an area that does auto-damage to enemies who start their turns there... which pops minions, no questions asked). Now, on the whole, I'm ok with this power. I don't think that it's especially overpowered, or that it's unreasonable, and I don't want to simply stop using minions and make my friend's toy useless. He invested resources in this for a reason, and I want him to be able to use it. The problem is that it makes encounter design really difficult. I basically can't include minions at all, since they're guaranteed to die on the first round (and probably before they even get to go, surprise rounds notwithstanding). This means that I have to put in more standard enemies, which makes the combat tend to become a little bit on the difficult side (not inherently bad, but kind of limiting) and, more importantly, become longer.

So, how can I let my friend have his nice minion-popping toy without simply giving up on using minions at all? I don't want to just shut him down (that'd be as simple as saying that the minions I don't want autokilled "just happen" to have 2 points of resistance against the fire damage his zone auto-deals, or giving them [Level] HP instead of 1 HP, which won't be noticeable to anyone dealing real damage to them), both because it's not fair to him (this is a legitimate toy, and he should get to use it) and because it'd be obvious that I'm simply saying "no, it doesn't work" to him. I've tried having creatures that summon more minions, which worked decently well, but that was still a lot of bookkeeping, and I don't want to use the same trick in every fight. I've put in one or two combats without minions, but again, I don't want to tell him that he just doesn't get to use his powers because I can't handle them.

The zone is huge enough that I can't really spread the minions out on anything other than the widest of open fields (it's something stupid like Burst 4), so simply not clustering the minions won't do it. How can I let my friend continue to have his minion-blastin' fun without simply accepting that, for the purposes of encounter difficulty, any minions I add might as well no longer exist? I really like the concept of the minion (and there's a lot of fun things you can do with them when they actually get a chance to exist), but right now, things are kind of inconvenient. Any suggestions on how to deal with this with the minimum "no, goddammit, the minions get a turn or two" fiat possible?

[Tengu_temp]

Ranged minions. Minions that explode when they die. Suicide berserker minions with better offense and lower defenses.

[Aron Times]

Human Gnome wave attack. Each round, more cannibalistic gnomes appear to fight the party. You can justify it by the gnomes not thinking that they need a larger force to take on the party, and when the first wave dies, a second, and then a third wave of hungry munchkins attempt to eat the party's kneecaps. Another justification would be that the party managed to lock the only entrance to where they're holed up but a few gnominators managed to get through. However, the gate won't hold, and in a few rounds more hungry midgets are going to try and eat them.

Seriously, send monsters in waves.

[Tvtyrant]

So, it's my turn to GM for our round-robin 4e game. We're level 7, and a standard four-person group with each role represented. However, I'm finding that I'm having a little bit of trouble with the encounter design.

See, we have a Wizard. And this Wizard has Enlarge Spell and Orb of Imposition. So his first action every encounter is to cast an enlarged and Orb-augmented Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation, which creates some enormously large party-friendly area of no-roll-required minion death. (The initial hit requires an attack roll, but it also automatically creates an area that does auto-damage to enemies who start their turns there... which pops minions, no questions asked). Now, on the whole, I'm ok with this power. I don't think that it's especially overpowered, or that it's unreasonable, and I don't want to simply stop using minions and make my friend's toy useless. He invested resources in this for a reason, and I want him to be able to use it. The problem is that it makes encounter design really difficult. I basically can't include minions at all, since they're guaranteed to die on the first round (and probably before they even get to go, surprise rounds notwithstanding). This means that I have to put in more standard enemies, which makes the combat tend to become a little bit on the difficult side (not inherently bad, but kind of limiting) and, more importantly, become longer.

So, how can I let my friend have his nice minion-popping toy without simply giving up on using minions at all? I don't want to just shut him down (that'd be as simple as saying that the minions I don't want autokilled "just happen" to have 2 points of resistance against the fire damage his zone auto-deals, or giving them [Level] HP instead of 1 HP, which won't be noticeable to anyone dealing real damage to them), both because it's not fair to him (this is a legitimate toy, and he should get to use it) and because it'd be obvious that I'm simply saying "no, it doesn't work" to him. I've tried having creatures that summon more minions, which worked decently well, but that was still a lot of bookkeeping, and I don't want to use the same trick in every fight. I've put in one or two combats without minions, but again, I don't want to tell him that he just doesn't get to use his powers because I can't handle them.

The zone is huge enough that I can't really spread the minions out on anything other than the widest of open fields (it's something stupid like Burst 4), so simply not clustering the minions won't do it. How can I let my friend continue to have his minion-blastin' fun without simply accepting that, for the purposes of encounter difficulty, any minions I add might as well no longer exist? I really like the concept of the minion (and there's a lot of fun things you can do with them when they actually get a chance to exist), but right now, things are kind of inconvenient. Any suggestions on how to deal with this with the minimum "no, goddammit, the minions get a turn or two" fiat possible?

Alarm type encounters! Why would all of the minions be standing in a room together anyway? Have an alarm go off when the battle starts, and every couple rounds have large groups of minions pour into the battle; to make it fair you could even have the guy who sounds the alarm be fairly obvious (liking carrying a magic gong) so your guys can kill him before he sets off the alarm. If you wanted to prevent it from becoming a TPK by drag, have the alarm go off till the gong is destroyed, so killing the gong ringer turns off the alarm and if they are not already in the room they assume the issue is over.

[tcrudisi]

First, is he using the power properly? Even with Enlarge Spell, it is only a burst 2. It stays a burst 2 until the Wizards second turn, upon which he uses his Orb power to enlarge it by one more, making it a burst 3. So anything not in the burst 2 is fine. Yeah, burst 2 is big, but that shouldn't catch more than half the minions in it.

Secondly, have the minions come in after the first round of combat somehow. Minion generator, guy who brings them back to life in his aura, guy with power to bring them back, guy who summons them, etc. There are a lot of ways to bring them in (or back) after round 1.

Third, make the opportunity cost for killing the minions lower than doing something else. He's an Orb wizard, so if you put him against a solo with minions, he has a decision to make: use his orb power to lock down the solo or to kill the minions.

[Xefas]

Minions that explode when they die.

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[Loren]

Another way to get more use out of minions is to spread them out. Range minions work well for this, but meelee work too. If the minions aren;t bunched up it isn't possible to nail them all in a single attack.

Let say you design an encounter with 8 minions. Let's place it around a road in a forest some that there is plenty of room and some brushes to hide in and trees to move around. Let's put 3 minions in front of the party on the road. These are the candy for the wizard. The remaining 5 minions can be in the forest on either side of the road, 3 on one side, 2 on the other. Spread them out in lines along the road with about 4 spaces between them (I'd even be temped to put one or two archers up in the trees to get cover and be a challenge to reach). The flanking minions can be ranged attackers, forcing the party to spread out to get them, or meelees who rush into the party from different directions.

In Classical times, lightly armed units (guys in t-shirts with pointy stick) operated on the flanks of the primary battle groups (guys with big shields, heavy armour, and nasty bits of metal). One thing the light infantry could do was stand off to the side so that they they could out flank anyone trying to flank the heavies. Alternatively, they could move foreward and attack the sides and even rear of the opponent, giving advantages to the heavies (the battle of Cannae is a good example of this http://www.roman-empire.net/army/cannae.html ). Meelee minions make a respectible stand-in for light infantry of the day of yore.
You could put together a really challenging encounter with meelee minions operating on either side of a core of elite and soldiers, backed with disperesed ranged minions and an artillery or two.

------
edit Ilipa demonstates the strategem from Cannae in a simpler formate http://www.roman-empire.net/army/ilipa.html

[Zaq]

Ranged minions. Minions that explode when they die. Suicide berserker minions with better offense and lower defenses.

Those only really work if they go before he does, and he's invested enough in his initiative to make that highly unlikely. Again, nothing that he's doing is out of line and is in fact quite reasonable, but it's very inconvenient for me.

Human Gnome wave attack. Each round, more cannibalistic gnomes appear to fight the party. You can justify it by the gnomes not thinking that they need a larger force to take on the party, and when the first wave dies, a second, and then a third wave of hungry munchkins attempt to eat the party's kneecaps. Another justification would be that the party managed to lock the only entrance to where they're holed up but a few gnominators managed to get through. However, the gate won't hold, and in a few rounds more hungry midgets are going to try and eat them.

Seriously, send monsters in waves.

This is pretty much what I was doing with the minion summoner. It's as good as I've gotten so far, and it seems to be what everyone's suggesting.

First, is he using the power properly? Even with Enlarge Spell, it is only a burst 2. It stays a burst 2 until the Wizards second turn, upon which he uses his Orb power to enlarge it by one more, making it a burst 3. So anything not in the burst 2 is fine. Yeah, burst 2 is big, but that shouldn't catch more than half the minions in it.

Secondly, have the minions come in after the first round of combat somehow. Minion generator, guy who brings them back to life in his aura, guy with power to bring them back, guy who summons them, etc. There are a lot of ways to bring them in (or back) after round 1.

Third, make the opportunity cost for killing the minions lower than doing something else. He's an Orb wizard, so if you put him against a solo with minions, he has a decision to make: use his orb power to lock down the solo or to kill the minions.

I'm pretty sure that he's using the power correctly. He casts the spell, taking a free action as he's doing so to make it last longer, make it bigger, and make it party-friendly, as the spell explicitly allows. Then he applies Enlarge Spell to make it one step bigger. It looks legit, so far as I can tell. Even if he applied it afterward, it'd still auto-kill minions.

It looks like everyone's suggesting just bringing in more and more minions after the first couple of rounds. I was hoping that there would be another answer, but it looks like that's as good as it gets. Any suggestions for dealing with their initiatives or starting positions? It's one thing when you're in a closed room (they just appear at the door), but what about in a more open area?

[Loren]

but what about in a more open area?

See my post above

[Urpriest]

Minions coming in after the first round isn't a bad solution.

The WotC boards have a bunch of threads about making minions more interesting, and one of the ideas thrown around is to make two-hit minions. These are exactly what they sound like: minions that you must damage twice to kill. They stop being trivial, but still give a pretty good minion feel. While they don't solve the difficult parts of minions entirely, I've heard good reviews.

[shadowmage]

I'm pretty sure that he's using the power correctly. He casts the spell, taking a free action as he's doing so to make it last longer, make it bigger, and make it party-friendly, as the spell explicitly allows. Then he applies Enlarge Spell to make it one step bigger. It looks legit, so far as I can tell. Even if he applied it afterward, it'd still auto-kill minions.

Just so you know he should not be able to expand it till turn 2. From reading the Orb ability it only can be used on a power ending that turn. So first turn he can only expand the size with the Enlarge Spell feat and can still hit allies. Then next turn he can use his orb ability taking it to burst 3 and not hurting allies. So if you spread you minions out a little more some might survive for a turn.

From Rule compendium for ref.

Alternatively, you can choose to extend the duration of an effect created by a wizard at-will spell (such as cloud of daggers or ray of frost) that would otherwise end at the end of your current turn. The effect instead ends at the end of your next turn.

[tcrudisi]

Just so you know he should not be able to expand it till turn 2. From reading the Orb ability it only can be used on a power ending that turn. So first turn he can only expand the size with the Enlarge Spell feat and can still hit allies. Then next turn he can use his orb ability taking it to burst 3 and not hurting allies. So if you spread you minions out a little more some might survive for a turn.

From Rule compendium for ref.

Alternatively, you can choose to extend the duration of an effect created by a wizard at-will spell (such as cloud of daggers or ray of frost) that would otherwise end at the end of your current turn. The effect instead ends at the end of your next turn.

This -- he's using it incorrectly. When he first uses it (on round 1), it is only burst 2. In round 2, when it would be going away, he uses the Orb to extend it and make it a burst 3. This gives your minions time to get away from the burst. It's a common mistake with that power, but he's inadvertently made it more powerful than it really is.

[Zaq]

Just so you know he should not be able to expand it till turn 2. From reading the Orb ability it only can be used on a power ending that turn. So first turn he can only expand the size with the Enlarge Spell feat and can still hit allies. Then next turn he can use his orb ability taking it to burst 3 and not hurting allies. So if you spread you minions out a little more some might survive for a turn.

From Rule compendium for ref.

Alternatively, you can choose to extend the duration of an effect created by a wizard at-will spell (such as cloud of daggers or ray of frost) that would otherwise end at the end of your current turn. The effect instead ends at the end of your next turn.

I don't have the Rules Compendium, but as far as I know, Orb of Imposition is a free action that doesn't have a trigger, so it can be activated at any time. As to the timing in the power itself, it seems ambiguous at best, really. Hmmm. This is vexing.

[Zaydos]

The Player's Handbook uses the same wording as to only those that would end at the end of the current turn being valid for Orb of Imposition.

[Zaq]

Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation is a specific exception, Zaydos.

Orb of Imposition: You can extend the duration of this effect, even though it is not an at-will power. If you do so, the area expands to burst 3 and doesn’t affect you or your allies.

[Zaydos]

Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation is a specific exception, Zaydos.

Exception to having to be an at-will, it said nothing about being an exception to the part of the rule in question (ending at the end of the current turn).

[Zaq]

What? It...

Oh.

...Oh.

It has to end at the end of your current turn, like most (all?) at-wills do. It normally ends at the end of your next turn. I. Um. I think I need to talk to my Wizard friend, because that changes a LOT.

[tcrudisi]

The power says: Orb of Imposition: You can extend the duration of this effect, even though it is not an at-will power. If you do so, the area expands to burst 3 and doesn’t affect you or your allies.

The Wizard Class Feature says: Orb of Imposition: ... Alternatively, you can choose to extend the duration of an effect created by a wizard at-will spell that would otherwise end at the end of your current turn. The effect instead ends at the end of your next turn.

What you get from this is the power giving exception to the class feature. The class feature is now able to work on the power, (exception here) even though the power is an encounter power and not an at-will. However, it does not give exception to when this occurs, so the power must still end at the end of your current turn (read as: round 2 in our case).

If it did give exception to the timing, it would do so explicitly, like it does for the fact that you can use the Orb of Imposition feature on the power even though it's an encounter power.

However, this will only mitigate some of your problems, it won't solve it completely. Wizards are good at killing minions; it is one of their big roles. You will likely still need to implement one of the suggestions given to you before this, but at least you'll be able to see that this power is properly used.

/edit - Ninja'ed! My last paragraph still stands, though. Also, it may have been an honest mistake as I know that I screwed that power up the first time I used it, then another friend (who is also a walking rules book) screwed it up the first time he used it. That's... just a confusing power.

[Zaydos]

What? It...

Oh.

...Oh.

It has to end at the end of your current turn, like most (all?) at-wills do. It normally ends at the end of your next turn. I. Um. I think I need to talk to my Wizard friend, because that changes a LOT.

The at-wills used in the example both end at the end of your next turn; but on your next turn they end at the end of your current turn.

[Reluctance]

The whole "...if you do so, the area expands to burst 3 and doesn't affect your allies" part makes me wonder, since the autodamage zone is already party friendly. Still, that's more a case of funky wording than anything else.

If you want to keep minions viable, and spice up the battlefield as a side effect, remember LoE requirements. Partitions, pillars, and other ways of dividing up the battlefield can limit zones of death, while simultaneously rewarding the controller with the ability to make certain paths more or less attractive.

[Zaq]

Well, I talked to the Wizard player with the new information about how Incendiary Detonation does and does not work, and while he was disappointed, he agreed (as it is, after all, what's in the book) and decided to swap out for a different power. He's still got enough AoEs to make short work of minions if he sets his mind to it, but he no longer has the ability to make the entire encounter a Minion Free Zone with no dice required, so that's a load off my mind. Thanks for pointing out that rules issue! We don't like breaking the rules when we don't have to, and it makes the encounter building so very much easier.

[kieza]

A tactic you can use sparingly is to toss in a leader with a group of minions. Something that gives 5+1/2 level temp HP to a large group is enough to insulate minions from a large-area low-damage attack.

Another thing I used once or twice was a "shield generator" which took attacks aimed at creatures close to it...and had truly massive DR and 1 HP. Do a lot of damage to it, and it collapses, but that attack does nothing to the minions around it. And if you don't do enough damage, it's completely unscathed. (Or you could do what my group did and run inside the shield.)

Essentially, when you're running minions, you want it to take 2-3 rounds to take out most of them. Scatter them so that the wizard can't get more than 3 at a time, give them temp HP or resists, add a second wave 2 rounds in, or, and this is my favorite, give them high Stealth skills and have them hide as soon as they fire.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and ranged minions are great. The range on a longbow is 20/40. A lot of controller powers are range 10 or 20. A bunch of minions with bows, standing a long ways behind 2-3 soldiers, with fortifications, can do a lot of damage before the PCs can even get to them.

[Mordokai]

There was a solo adventure in Dragon 382 from december 2009, called Dark Awakenings. In it, there were included tainted wisps, a level one lurker minions. Their special ability was their incorporeal form, which basically meant that every time you hit the wisp, you roll a d20. On a roll of 10+, the wisps survives the hit. Not shabby for an encounter power and it gives minion a decent survivability, especially if there's a lot of them.

It would be easy work to make minions of higher levels something like this. Undead have incoreal forms, kobolds have a shield and/or armor that is blown away with the first hit... use your imagination. The rules are easy to bend a little. Hell, if you want to be nasty, give this ability to some vermin like minions, but instead of ignoring the first hit, on a roll of 10+, they split. Now you have two minions where there was only one moments before. Of course, the spawn doesn't get the benefit of this power, since that would be just overkill.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, I talked to the Wizard player with the new information about how Incendiary Detonation does and does not work, and while he was disappointed, he agreed (as it is, after all, what's in the book) and decided to swap out for a different power.

That's a good solution. Misreading OID is a common mistake; the power could have been worded better. Note that even when played as written, OID is still easily one of the most powerful wizard spells for that level.

Anyway, one of the strong points of the wizard class is that they will generally obliterate minions in the first round without breaking a sweat. To counteract this, use minions with resistances or stealth; leader monsters that respawn minions or give them temp HP; or minions that come from five directions at once, or arrive over several turns.

[KillianHawkeye]

Although you may have resolved the current issue, here's some general advice:

Wizards are great at killing minions. Your player made a wizard who specializes in killing minions. Your player enjoys killing minions.

The solution therefore is not to stop using minions, but to use EVEN MORE minions.



Always do what's best for the game, and don't take away the things that are fun for your players. Of course, be sure to include some enemies for your other players to focus on!

[tcrudisi]

Note that even when played as written, OID is still easily one of the most powerful wizard spells for that level.

Agreed - that player should still try out the power before swapping it out. It's still a very good power.

Although you may have resolved the current issue, here's some general advice:

Wizards are great at killing minions. Your player made a wizard who specializes in killing minions. Your player enjoys killing minions.

The solution therefore is not to stop using minions, but to use EVEN MORE minions.

Always do what's best for the game, and don't take away the things that are fun for your players. Of course, be sure to include some enemies for your other players to focus on!

And this, 100%. Well said, KillianHawkeye.

[Tiki Snakes]

The solution therefore is not to stop using minions, but to use EVEN MORE minions.

I endorse this solution.

[dsmiles]

The solution therefore is not to stop using minions, but to use EVEN MORE minions.

I, too, submit my endorsement of this tactic. (Mostly because I also LOVE minions. They're just so miniony. )

[shadowmage]

Agreed - that player should still try out the power before swapping it out. It's still a very good power.

I agree as well. Instead of 2 turns of ally safe minion killing power he gets 3 rounds of minion killing power that if his allies can push or pull targets into he just effectively increases their damage and might offer some protection for 2 rounds, as enemies might not want to enter the damaging field. Minions for sure will stay out for the 2 other rounds if they are still around.

[The Big Dice]

I, too, submit my endorsement of this tactic. (Mostly because I also LOVE minions. They're just so miniony. )

There are some things that shouldn't get tougher, you should just get more of them.