how many commoners would it take tooo

[big teej]

provide a viable combat challenge to a level 2 party consisting of

Elf Druid
Human Paladin
half Elf ranger
human ranger
half elf rogue

15?
30?
10?

the commoners will have 4 hit points each and virtually no weapons (every 1 in 10 will have a dagger, and every 1 in 20 will have a simple weapon)


in addition to the commonors there will be four demons (manes 8 hp)
and a 'cult leader' which will be a..... 2nd level cleric, and will get to roll on the 'sacrifice rewards' table in the BoVD.

the idea is for the party to engage the commoners first in an attempt to break through and stop the sacrifice, and the demons will appear in conjunction with the sacrifice, whtehr its flubbed or succeeds.


before this encounter, the party will have fought 2 - 4 modified hell hounds (modified to make them much weaker than normal)

so how many commoners should I use for this encounter?

I'm thinking 30 or so. but I'm terrible at numbers.

[Kaww]

Does the party have an AoE attack? If yes, you may throw as many commoners as you want. If no, then limit yourself to 20, especially if you play by 20, 20 you are dead. Since 20s are likely to happen.

And have the commoners throw rocks, they need no proficiency with those.

[big teej]

for my group rolling a 20 is merely an autocrit
none of that 'three 20's in a row and the level one slays asmodeous' buisness

and aside from the druid, they have no casters.

sooo

20?

now granted, I keep referring to them as 'commoners' but they're actually demon worshiping mutant peoples... some more so than others, I just decided to lump them all together statwise for simplicity

[Kaww]

Mook is mook. If they have 4hp, no weapons and no BAB they are mooks^2.

How about cleave and/or combat reflexes? While not AoE attacks they kill several mooks in one round...

EDIT: If mooks are in an area that allows the Druid to cast entangle feel free to have two waves or something like that, since entangle says STOP!

[Lord Vukodlak]

These commoners are cultists I assume?
The unarmed commoners are hard to judge as they'd provoke an AoO when they try and punch the PC's, if one of them has combat reflexes this can really wrack up the kills quickly,[especially if that character also has cleave].\
The unarmed commoners would have a -4 to hit so even if they aren't killed by the AoO chances are they'll miss.

They shouldn't even give xp their so weak, so why bother?

Your probably thinking that not every commoner should have a weapon, but you'd be wrong on that. First as these are cultists right so why wouldn't they arm themselves? Clubs are easy to acquire being basically tree branches, and sickles are actually farming to tools for harvesting wheat. So show me 100 medieval wheat farmers and I'll show you 100 sickles.

[dgnslyr]

Do the commoners know the PCs will be coming? If they do, then they could have went home to grab something heavy, sharp, or pointy. Maybe one went home to grab a sickle or a hatchet. Maybe one grabbed looked for a big stick or walking stick. Maybe one grabbed his hunting bow or sling. A small, heavy rock could give someone a nasty knock on the head. If they're all armed, even with simple weapons, then it could get ugly really fast for the PCs if they don't have Cleave or Combat Reflexes or AoE attacks.

[big teej]

Mook is mook. If they have 4hp, no weapons and no BAB they are mooks^2.

How about cleave and/or combat reflexes? While not AoE attacks they kill several mooks in one round...

EDIT: If mooks are in an area that allows the Druid to cast entangle feel free to have two waves or something like that, since entangle says STOP!

the druid will indeed have entangle, whether the player grasps this tactic however, is very very very very up in the air.

I refuse to feed my players tactics, it discourages innovation and learning

These commoners are cultists I assume?
The unarmed commoners are hard to judge as they'd provoke an AoO when they try and punch the PC's, if one of them has combat reflexes this can really wrack up the kills quickly,[especially if that character also has cleave].\
The unarmed commoners would have a -4 to hit so even if they aren't killed by the AoO chances are they'll miss.

They shouldn't even give xp their so weak, so why bother?

Your probably thinking that not every commoner should have a weapon, but you'd be wrong on that. First as these are cultists right so why wouldn't they arm themselves? Clubs are easy to acquire being basically tree branches, and sickles are actually farming to tools for harvesting wheat. So show me 100 medieval wheat farmers and I'll show you 100 sickles.

cultists aye!
cultists of slannesh (prince of hedonism) .... so the majority of the cultists will be in...... a severe state of undress.
however, I like the clubs idea, so I might make it 'every other' cultist has a simple weapon...

Do the commoners know the PCs will be coming? If they do, then they could have went home to grab something heavy, sharp, or pointy. Maybe one went home to grab a sickle or a hatchet. Maybe one grabbed looked for a big stick or walking stick. Maybe one grabbed his hunting bow or sling. A small, heavy rock could give someone a nasty knock on the head. If they're all armed, even with simple weapons, then it could get ugly really fast for the PCs if they don't have Cleave or Combat Reflexes or AoE attacks.

know they're coming in the sense of 'hey, the adventuring group should be here within the week, lets prep!'
or
know they're coming in the sense of 'hey, did you hear that large violent sounding noise over where we keep the demon hound?'

because the cultists don't know they're coming, they might get a heads up if they're exceptionally noisy killing the hound. but thats it.

second, the fighter is missing, so I'm pretty sure nobody has cleave. but the druid will have access to entangle.
whether she'll remember to use it.....

[dgnslyr]

Pretty much anything can be an improvised weapon. A chair, a plate, a banner. A few moments notice should be enough time to grab the nearest heavy-ish object. All the ones without a simple weapon, like a club or quarterstaff or dagger, should have an improvised weapon of some kind. With enough cultists, the -4 penalty won't mean much when there's enough of them.

[big teej]

Pretty much anything can be an improvised weapon. A chair, a plate, a banner. A few moments notice should be enough time to grab the nearest heavy-ish object. All the ones without a simple weapon, like a club or quarterstaff or dagger, should have an improvised weapon of some kind. With enough cultists, the -4 penalty won't mean much when there's enough of them.

the adventure takes place in a field several miles from the nearest village

[dgnslyr]

the adventure takes place in a field several miles from the nearest village

A big stick? A large rock? Your halfling friend?

Oh. Now I think I see what you meant by followers of the "prince of hedonism."

[Volos]

I have a simple answer for you my friend.

Step 1: Dungeon Master's Guide II
Step 2: Mob Rules
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!

Oh yeah.

[big teej]

I'm afraid I only have the mob rules from cityscape (assuming they're different)

...could a level 2 party take on a mob + 4 demons + level 2 cleric?

that would make life so much simpler...

[Volos]

Mobs are deadly as hell. I only use them to remind my players that killing innocents isn't the best way to introduce themselves. Then they get surprised when the mobs kick their butts, and they can't buy any magic items with all the money they have collected.

[big teej]

... and here I was thinking that cityscape wouldn't see any use with my groups....


that aside, these arn't innocent civilians, these are demented daemon worshipping cultists!

and having reviewed the mob rules* I decided thats far more lethal than '20 cultists with assorted weapons'

so I won't be using that particular gem (this time)

*thankyou Dio

[Tvtyrant]

The easiest way to make this challenging is to have a few level 1 rogues in the mob of peasents, who look exactly like the peasents and only have daggers. The first time someone gets flanking-sneak attacked your party will panic!

As for the pesents themselves, for the half that is unarmed have them simply try to make grapple attempts. All of them. Think about it, would you try to punch someone with a sword? Tackling them is much more likely to work then punching. So 50% tackling and 50% with weapons, a rogue or two thrown in to keep things terrifying, and you have yourself an encounter!

[Volos]

The easiest way to make this challenging is to have a few level 1 rogues in the mob of peasents, who look exactly like the peasents and only have daggers. The first time someone gets flanking-sneak attacked your party will panic!

As for the pesents themselves, for the half that is unarmed have them simply try to make grapple attempts. All of them. Think about it, would you try to punch someone with a sword? Tackling them is much more likely to work then punching. So 50% tackling and 50% with weapons, a rogue or two thrown in to keep things terrifying, and you have yourself an encounter!

This combined with aid another rules. You can use aid another when flanking to give another +2 bonus to the attack roll of the person who is actually attacking. So if you just threaten him by surrounding him, only one of the peasants needs a weapon to be effective at hititng your PCs.

[Greenish]

how many commoners would it take to provide a viable combat challenge to a level 2 party

One. Make it level 10+ and it can crush the party with WBL.

[Tvtyrant]

This combined with aid another rules. You can use aid another when flanking to give another +2 bonus to the attack roll of the person who is actually attacking. So if you just threaten him by surrounding him, only one of the peasants needs a weapon to be effective at hititng your PCs.

Yeah, I remember once rolling out the stats for one level 10 party member versus 100 enemies. It went well if they stuck to arrows, but once they decided to aid each other and grapple it started to go down hill.

The thing I discovered from that experiment is that wizards are very, very squishy. A wizard without backup dies.

[Lans]

One. Make it level 10+ and it can crush the party with WBL.

Or use the heritage feat that gives summon monster V and dimension door,