Whirlwind Attack, Spiked Chains, Improved Trip and Knock Down

[Matamane]

How do these 4 interact?

Can I sub any or all attacks for trips, if I do 10 damage, do I get an auto trip before I continue the whirlwind? If I trip, do I get an additional attack before I continute the whirlwind?

[Yuki Akuma]

Whirlwind Attack [General]
Prerequisites
Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit
When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Special
A fighter may select Whirlwind Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Read that bolded part.

[Matamane]

Can I trip someone who is already tripped for infinite attacks?

[Yuki Akuma]

You can't trip someone who's already prone.

[Coidzor]

Read that bolded part.

Does that mean one can't use trip attacks against any/all foes or just that one can't get the free followup attack or the bonus to the strength check from improved trip?

[Person_Man]

Spiked Chain + Whirlwind attack is strait forward. Whirlwind attack effects everyone within reach. So for a Medium character using a Spiked Chain, that's everyone within 10 feet. If you are a Large character using a Spiked Chain, it's everyone within 20 feet.


Knock-Down + Improved Trip is a bit more confusing. According to the errata and FAQ, it basically changes the Trip order of operations from:

Improved Trip:
1) Make Touch Attack
2) Make Opposed Check (if you hit)
3) Enemy is knocked Prone (if you win)
3) Get free follow up attack as if you had not initially spent your attack action on your touch attack.

to Knockdown:
1) Make Attack that deals 10+ points of damage.
2) Make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.
3) Enemy is knocked Prone.

The latter is more efficient and has a higher chance of success.


Beyond that, there is no benefit to Whirlwind Attack + Improved Trip and/or Knock-Down. "When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities." A Trip attack is an attack, listed under the Special Attacks section, and specifically described as an attack action. Thus even if you hit everyone in your threatened area with 10+ points of damage, you give up any "extra attacks" granted by them.

[Coidzor]

Improved Trip:
1) Make Touch Attack
2) Make Opposed Check (if you hit)
3) Enemy is knocked Prone (if you win)
3) Get free follow up attack as if you had not initially spent your attack action on your touch attack.

to Knockdown:
1) Make Attack that deals 10+ points of damage.
2) Make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.
3) Enemy is knocked Prone.

So, wait, Knockdown still has the opposed check or...?

[Keld Denar]

Yea, Knockdown is still a Str check opposed by your foe's Str or Dex, as they choose.

[ffone]

Knockdown requires you to make a touch attack for the follow-up trip attack, as normal. It says that you get "a trip attack" (which under http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm 'Making a Trip Attack' includes the touch attack, the opposed Str check, and the opponent's countertrip opposed check if you lose the first opposed check). It does not say you just make the opposed check, or that you are exempted from the touch attack or the countertrip if your attempt fails. Compare to the Wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm), whose special ability specifically exempts it.

I wouldn't be surprised if lots of people leave those out, though, b/c of the flavor/fluff connotations and name of the feat.

[Coidzor]

Huh. Strange, I guess I must just not be following the mechanical advantage of that then.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Huh. Strange, I guess I must just not be following the mechanical advantage of that then.

A free trip attack is a free trip attack.

[Coidzor]

A free trip attack is a free trip attack.

Except it works out to just reversing the order of operations, unless you can get knockdown without the prerequisites.

Then again, I guess it does open up one's weaponry selection.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Except it works out to just reversing the order of operations, unless you can get knockdown without the prerequisites.

Then again, I guess it does open up one's weaponry selection.

I was under the impression that you still got the free follow-up attack after a knockdown trip.

[ffone]

Except it works out to just reversing the order of operations, unless you can get knockdown without the prerequisites.

Then again, I guess it does open up one's weaponry selection.

Hmm, that is an interesting question, whether the Knock-Down trip requires an actual tripping weapon. Probably RAW yes ('getting a trip attack as a free action' doesn't bypass the usual trip requirements - like if the weapon suddenly disintegrated after the attack, you're SOL). Though it probably wouldn't matter much to allow other weapons (weapons that give a bonus to the check will still be the ideal weapons.)

Though KD does basically just reverse the order of IT, it has advantages when

- You feel you're more likely to hit than successfully trip (the 10 damage is no restriction at all, esp. with the Str 15 and Power Attack prereqs)

- You value the damage more than the trip

- You want to reduce the chance of ending up countertripped or having to drop the weapon (or at least, have gotten your damage-attack in before you have to do so).

Advantage goes to IT when you figure the trip is more likely to succeed or more important, or you want the +4 attack bonus against a prone foe for the damage-attack.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'm still confused.

Knock-down:

Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.

Improved Trip:

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

Emphases mine. The way I read it, assuming lucky dice rolling, the chain of events happens like this (for Bob the Knock-down Tripper):

1. Bob makes regular attack against Foe and hits for 10+ damage.
2. Bob gets to make a trip attack against Foe as a free action and succeeds, tripping Foe.
3. Because Bob tripped an opponent in melee combat, Bob immediately gets another melee attack against that opponent (and hits for whatever damage).

To clarify, even though the trip is a free action, it's still a trip attack, which is a type of attack, meaning the extra attack from Improved Trip still qualifies... Eh, I'll go to the RAW thread.

[FelixG]

1. Bob makes regular attack against Foe and hits for 10+ damage.
2. Bob gets to make a trip attack against Foe as a free action and succeeds, tripping Foe.
3. Because Bob tripped an opponent in melee combat, Bob immediately gets another melee attack against that opponent (and hits for whatever damage).

Seems to me that it should work.

And as for whirlwind + trip...

You can use all of your whirlwind attacks to trip opponents

you just cant follow those trips up with extra attacks as per Improved Trip

[Person_Man]

I refer you to the Sword and Fist FAQ:

Does the fighter with the Knockdown feat get a free attack from Improved Trip against a creature that he trips due to a knockdown?

No.

So, with Knock-Down:

1) Bob makes a melee attack that deals 10+ points of damage.
2) Bob gets a free Str check, opposed by his enemy's Str or Dex check (whichever is higher), ie, a free "Trip Attack."
3) If Bob succeeds, his enemy is knocked Prone.

The end.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

But FAQ isn't RAW. Unless they included something like that in errata concerning Knock-down, that ruling seems to be at odds with how the feat is written.

[Keld Denar]

If you follow the link, Person_Man actually linked the errata archives, not the FAQ. It was errataed in Sword and Fist. When the feat was copied into Dieties and Demigods (and thus the SRD), the errata was excluded. Whether or not this was intentional, we will never know.

[ericgrau]

I still trust FAQ/etc. more than most other peoples' interpretation though. A FAQ answer means that it might be wrong, not that it is.

Knockdown seems to have a higher chance of trip + damage than improved trip assuming you don't roll the touch attack, but honestly that 95% on the touch isn't a big deal. Plus improved trip gives the target -4 AC for improved odds of hitting on the attack. The real issue comes when the target is so hard to trip that you're better off with knockdown so you can at least get some damage in or when he's so hard to damage you're better of with improved trip so you can at least trip him... and then have a higher chance of dealing damage.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If you follow the link, Person_Man actually linked the errata archives, not the FAQ. It was errataed in Sword and Fist. When the feat was copied into Dieties and Demigods (and thus the SRD), the errata was excluded. Whether or not this was intentional, we will never know.

Hm, I missed that. I guess technically the 3.5 ruleset trumps the 3.0 ruleset, but it's still pretty unclear.

[Keld Denar]

And as I said, the errata may have been errata'd by ommision, or it might have been a simple copy/pasta error that is evident in a dozen other sections of a dozen other books. In the end, technically acording to the strictest RAW, nothing says that Imp Trip doesn't trigger after a Knockdown. That said, most DMs I've ever talked to agree that it should have remained errata'd.

Take that with as many grains of salt as you require for your daily metabolic processes.

[ffone]

And as I said, the errata may have been errata'd by ommision, or it might have been a simple copy/pasta error that is evident in a dozen other sections of a dozen other books. In the end, technically acording to the strictest RAW, nothing says that Imp Trip doesn't trigger after a Knockdown. That said, most DMs I've ever talked to agree that it should have remained errata'd.

Take that with as many grains of salt as you require for your daily metabolic processes.

By strictest of RAW, the text of the DaD version is such that only a diety can use the feat (being one isn't a prereq, but the IIRC the Benefit part says "when the deity..." - so you could take it and get no benefit if you're a non-deity).

And since it has the same name as the S&F feat, it replaces it, meaning that you can't use the S&F one. So effectively KD is no longer in the game. Unless you're a deity.

I still trust FAQ/etc. more than most other peoples' interpretation though. A FAQ answer means that it might be wrong, not that it is.

Knockdown seems to have a higher chance of trip + damage than improved trip assuming you don't roll the touch attack, but honestly that 95% on the touch isn't a big deal. Plus improved trip gives the target -4 AC for improved odds of hitting on the attack. The real issue comes when the target is so hard to trip that you're better off with knockdown so you can at least get some damage in or when he's so hard to damage you're better of with improved trip so you can at least trip him... and then have a higher chance of dealing damage.

The +4 on the prone target is indeed a big reason to use IT instead.

KD is still great though, as evidenced by how people use it. In my experience characters with just IT don't typically use it all the time...but chars with KD invoke it on almost every successful attack (except against really huge and-or quadrapedal foes.)

Basically, people have a 'revealed preference' for damage attacks, so for 2 feats (3 if you consider Improved Bull Rusha a dead feat) you're getting a free trip attack withe very successful attack.

Also, KD has better synergy with PA, since using PA on that round reduces the chance that your trip attack touch attack will hit (although touch attacks are still easy to make), which in turn reduces the chance you ever got that damage follow-up attack. Whereas with KD the damage is already done.

[Darrin]

By strictest of RAW, the text of the DaD version is such that only a diety can use the feat (being one isn't a prereq, but the IIRC the Benefit part says "when the deity..." - so you could take it and get no benefit if you're a non-deity).

The version in the SRD (published after Deities & Demigods) replaced "When the deity..." with "Whenever you...". So officially by RAW, it's in the game with no errata.

[ffone]

The version in the SRD (published after Deities & Demigods) replaced "When the deity..." with "Whenever you...". So officially by RAW, it's in the game with no errata.

That section says "Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats.". It may not say ONLY deities, but it doesn't need to; everything under the SRD Divine Rules only applies to deities.

[Coidzor]

That section says "Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats.". It may not say ONLY deities, but it doesn't need to; everything under the SRD Divine Rules only applies to deities.

Knock-Down is a [general] feat. Not a [divine] feat. Ergo, the only pre-requisites it has are the ones listed in the feat's prerequisites.

[ffone]

Knock-Down is a [general] feat. Not a [divine] feat. Ergo, the only pre-requisites it has are the ones listed in the feat's prerequisites.

The [Divine] descriptor of some feats in that section (and in some manuals, like Complete Divine) refers to being 'powered' by uses of turn/rebuke undead, not by being deity-specific. (IIRC the descriptor is introduced and defined in Complete Divine.)

(Proper use of the Latin though.)

[Coidzor]

Types Of Feats

Some feats are general, meaning that no special rules govern them as a group. Others are item creation feats, which allow spellcasters to create magic items of all sorts. A metamagic feat lets a spellcaster prepare and cast a spell with greater effect, albeit as if the spell were a higher spell level than it actually is.

If they wanted them to be deity-specific without just putting it in the stated prerequisites, they would have had to have created a new class of feats rather than making them [general].

[ffone]

Not really. For example, Faerun-specific feats.

[Morph Bark]

Not really. For example, Faerun-specific feats.

Setting-specific does not necessarily equal deity-specific, or vice versa.


So... Whirlwind Attack + Knockdown would work, Knockdown + Improved trip wouldn't?