Warrior/Mage help?

[fireinthedust]

Here's my dilemma: I want to understand the 3.5/Pathfinder Eldritch Knight concept.

I like my 4e Swordmage: elven teleporter with that Warlock PP that lets him damage people while teleporting around the map. A lot.

However, it doesn't seem to mesh well with Pathfinder, especially at early levels.

The party is going to go through Age of Worms pbp, using Pathfinder. Pretty much Core rules.

I'm thinking that I'd like to try a Weapon Finesse build, as the high Dex of an Elf would work well with an Arcane casting class. Bonded weapon longsword (or whatever works with Weapon Finesse; longsword is way better, and I'd really prefer a one-handed Bastardsword build if that's possible).

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Eldariel]

Core-only doesn't offer an awful much for a Gish (Gish = Warrior Mage, pretty much though the etymology is a bit more complicated) but with few added books, you can get some nice tools to marry sword & magic. That said, an Eldritch Knight is respectable regardless, though they take a while to truly take off without extraordinary stats (two 18s). The Dex-bonus doesn't really necessite Finessing though if you do want to, you could always get Elven Curve Blade; it allows Finessing while two-handing it (and Elves can wield it as a martial weapon so no extra feat necessary). The big thing about two-handing is that Power Attack grants double benefits for two-handers and as boosting To Hit is rather easy for an arcanist, it's a huge benefit.

Do note that in 3.X, Constitution tends to be at least as important as Dexterity since it determines your HP total; indeed, majority of your HP will come from Constitution instead of Hit Dice come high levels. As such, the Elven racial penalty is really kinda bummer but the Intelligence-bonus is nice. Still, purely powerwise, Human tends to overtake everyone in Pathfinder rather soundly.


Teleporting around does work but takes some equipment or very high level; Quickened Dimension Door is an 8th level spell, but with Rod of Quicken Spell, you can use Dimension Door or Teleport from 4th/5th level slots painlessly.

You'll probably want to focus your spells on personal buffs (the Polymorph-line offers decent bonuses, and things like Mage Armor, Protection From Alignment, Shield, Heroism, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Greater Magic Weapon, Displacement, Bull's Strength-line and company are obvious) and ridding opposition of their magical protection (Dispel-line & al.) with the backup option of magical attacks when physicals don't work (think Enervation, for example).

One of the major level 1 buffs is Enlarge Person, which is why I prefer Strength-base; strength-based users gain -1 to hit from size, and +1 from the strength which nulls out (while benefitting of the increased reach = more attacks from attacks of opportunity, plus increased weapon damage dice and strength bonus) while Dex-wielders get -2 to hit (-1 from size and -1 from Dex penalty). So...yeah, think about it. Even if you don't use Dex to attack, the Elven racial bonus is very useful for AC, Initiative and company, so it's not wasted in any case.


For build, I suggest:
Ranger 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight ->

Ranger gets nice skills and has a very Elven feel to it and gets a good bunch of class skills and skill points, Wizard is obvious (and you need 3rd level spells to enter) and then Eldritch Knight advances both, BAB and spellcasting so that's obvious. Then you can finish out with more Wizard or even Archmage. Doesn't hurt that the Elven Favored Class is Wizard so you can get some extra HP, skill points or some such from those levels.

If you ever do take 2nd level in Ranger, you can pick up Rapid Shot; that feat alone is enough to give you decent competence with a Longbow so it's really nice. Do note that Rangers also gain the ability to use Ranger Spell Wands even before they gain the spellcasting; this means you can cure people with Wands of Cure Light Wounds (most economic means of healing in Core) without Use Magic Device thanks to that bonus.


For stats, importance is approximately:
Intelligence > Dexterity (if going Finesse) > Constitution > Strength > Wisdom > Charisma

Int still guides your casting, provides you extra spell slots and save DC for spells offering saves and so on, so it's a very potent stat. Especially extra slots never go to waste. Dexterity is main defense and with Finesse, required for your offense too. Con is HP and Str goes to damage, 1.5 times if you two-hand. Wisdom and Charisma buff some skills but Wis skills are probably more relevant to you.


For feats, well:
Weapon Finesse: If you go Finesse, obviously you want Finesse. Just don't neglect Str entirely; you don't get damage bonus from Dex.

Power Attack: Other reason you really want some Str, Power Attack is a great source of damage bonus even if it's not as good as in 3.5. Spells can offset the penalty rather respectably.

Arcane Strike: Free damage; yay! Costs you your Swift Action though so later on it'll conflict with your Quickened spells. Still, it can be useful.

Extend Spell: Well, Gishes rely on their buffs. This allows you to early on make hour/level buffs last all day and as levels increase, you can make 10 min/level spells last long enough with just few slots to make it look like the whole day, and and hour/level spells to last two days!

Quicken Spell: Pick it once you have the spellslots to fuel it; getting a spell and a full attack or two spells a turn is huge.


The rest...you could get Combat Expertise > Improved Trip line (along with Agile Maneuvers, I guess), hammer your head to a wall with Weapon Focus > Weapon Specialization > Greater Weapon Focus, get Improved Critical (it's decent with an 18-20 weapon) or Arcane Armor Training (with Mage Armor, it's not really all that, but it can have its uses since armors can get armor enhancements which can be very useful) or some such. Frankly, those feats won't have such a huge impact which is why I didn't list them in the Core; pick up whatever. Oh, Crafts - provided you get some downtime - can be excellent so consider at least Craft Wondrous Items and Craft Magic Arms & Armor.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Divination Specialization has a nice ability in Forewarned; Initiative is always good. The second ability is also occasionally useful for e.g. buffing the Rogue's Disable Device for a particularly tricky trap or the Bard's Diplomacy for some key check. So consider that. Transmutation isn't terrible but it being Enhancement kinda spoils your fun in a few levels, and Abjuration has some occasionally useful abilities. The rest aren't terribly relevant to a gish, though Enchanting Smile from Enchanter can be cool if you are interested in some facecraft.

[fireinthedust]

The campaign is Age of Worms. I'm under the impression that we'll be aiming towards epic from 1st. A bit of a stretch apparently now, but the folks on the site have been there as long as I have, so maybe!

I guess I'm wondering how an Eldritch Knight will square with other epic options.

1) could I do well with a Gnomish Sor/Ranger? Or even a Sor/Paladin/Eldritchknight?

2) Is Human better than Elf?

3) Is Strength better in the long run than Dex?

I figure with Dex I'll be able to double up on AC/Ref and attacking with Finesse. Yes there's the damage loss, but I'll be able to do Acrobatics, and I assume it helps for ranged touch attacks.

Is Elven Curved blade a good option for Eldritch Knights? Looks good for the Dex/Finesse. I wish I could use Longsword rather than Curved Blade with Weapon Finesse! Simply for the concept/style. My swordmage used one, then swapped up to Bastard Sword. I like the straight blade better than the image of the curved one. Purely aesthetic.

Int>Dex>Con>Str>Wix>Cha?

I'm so used to DMing that making up a PC is strange. I'm also trying to do something different with this character.

I'm thinking Ranger 1 base, then Wizard for 5 levels, then EK until I'm done. I don't know that it matters what my favoured enemy is, so I might pick... Undead? They'll last for the entire 1-20 spread, while many of the others have specific levels they're good for.

[Crow]

If D20SRD is allowed by your DM you can pull some good teleporting gishiness with psionics.

Pathfinder is supposed to be compatible with it, so you can prolly wriggle a psychic warrior in there.

[Eldariel]

The campaign is Age of Worms. I'm under the impression that we'll be aiming towards epic from 1st. A bit of a stretch apparently now, but the folks on the site have been there as long as I have, so maybe!

I guess I'm wondering how an Eldritch Knight will square with other epic options.

1) could I do well with a Gnomish Sor/Ranger? Or even a Sor/Paladin/Eldritchknight?

Paladin 2/Sorcerer X/Eldritch Knight is a respectable Gish, but due to Sorcerers being worse than Wizards (a spell level behind), you'll never get 9th level spells and 16 BAB both, and your options for what 9th level spells you cast would be severely limited. 9th level spells in particular is a dealbreaker; it's notably weaker than the Wizard options.

2) Is Human better than Elf?

If you don't plan on using Elven Curve Blade. As a race, Human is the strongest even if the feats aren't all that powerful in Pathfinder Core. However, picking up Elven Curve Blade for a non-Elf would cost you an extra feat anyways so in that sense, Elf comes out ahead (since both Intelligence and Dexterity are very important for a Gish).

3) Is Strength better in the long run than Dex?

It's not better (it's much worse composite) but it's the better offensive stat. See, the thing is, many things that boost Strength (spells in particular) also give you a penalty in Dexterity. When you use Strength, this doesn't alter your offensive capabilities, but when you use Dex to hit and Strength for damage, suddenly your damage increases but your ability to hit drops.

This is a case of single attribute dependency; deriving your attacks entirely off one ability score means you can focus on improving that in combat. Splitting it between two means you need to try to improve two stats simultaneously, which is much harder.

I figure with Dex I'll be able to double up on AC/Ref and attacking with Finesse. Yes there's the damage loss, but I'll be able to do Acrobatics, and I assume it helps for ranged touch attacks.

Thing is, the damage loss is quite severe. A Wizard can buff his strength by +8 just with spells that increase your size. Then he can add 6 more enhancement bonus to it, and 5 more inherent. At best, he can buff his strength by +6 size bonus, and that makes you an air elemental which makes wielding a weapon slightly complicated (given, y'know, lack of hands and all).

Also, the AC issue isn't so big in the long run; Wizards do defend with AC too, yes, but more important in the long run is their ability to use miss chances and invisibility; Mirror Image, Displacement, Invisibility and so on form a far stronger base for defense than Dexterity and AC alone would. Though definitely you should improve your AC too; just, as it's not the only line of defense, it's not that important.

Dexterity basically starts off strong but gets less important as levels increase. Acrobatics is good, yes, and you'll want some Dex but it's not the be-all end-all stat.

Is Elven Curved blade a good option for Eldritch Knights? Looks good for the Dex/Finesse. I wish I could use Longsword rather than Curved Blade with Weapon Finesse! Simply for the concept/style. My swordmage used one, then swapped up to Bastard Sword. I like the straight blade better than the image of the curved one. Purely aesthetic.

*shrug* You can refluff it as an Elven Longsword or something; after all, Elves are supposed to be Longsword specialists so why not develop ones that give more opportunities for criticals and strike harder. But yes, it's notably better.

Thing is, if you aren't Finessing, it loses some of its appeal. At that point, a simple Greatsword can perform close to as well, though Guisarme and Falchion form solid alternatives too (I may not have mentioned it yet, but reach is extremely potent in 3.X, especially coupled with e.g. ability to Trip or the Stand Still-feat and Combat Reflexes - this is why increasing your size is also nice, it adds to your reach).

Int>Dex>Con>Str>Wix>Cha?

Stat priority. Int is the most important attribute for your character, followed by Dex, Con and Strength in that order. So when you get your points, assign them from highest to lowest in that order. This is the kind of prioritization chart Char Ops uses when we don't know the exact stats or point buy in question yet. Though Dex's priority depends on whether you Finesse or not. Str could overtake it if you end up not Finessing.

I'm so used to DMing that making up a PC is strange. I'm also trying to do something different with this character.

I'm thinking Ranger 1 base, then Wizard for 5 levels, then EK until I'm done. I don't know that it matters what my favoured enemy is, so I might pick... Undead? They'll last for the entire 1-20 spread, while many of the others have specific levels they're good for.

Undead is a fine enemy choice. Evil Outsiders is another good one. Monstrous Humanoid and Humanoid (Giant) are both fair too, as is Dragons and Aberrations (though Dragons only kicks in rarely, of course). Really though, it's not so major; go with your heart on that one.

And yeah, Ranger 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Wizard 3/Full BAB 1 (could be another Ranger, or a level of Barbarian or Fighter or whatever you feel you need) gives you the key stats of a successful Gish: 16 BAB (so 4 attacks) and Caster Level 17. As in the epic, stats no longer advance normally, it's important to get all that stuff before then.

[fireinthedust]

If you don't plan on using Elven Curve Blade. As a race, Human is the strongest even if the feats aren't all that powerful in Pathfinder Core. However, picking up Elven Curve Blade for a non-Elf would cost you an extra feat anyways so in that sense, Elf comes out ahead (since both Intelligence and Dexterity are very important for a Gish).

Okay, Elf it is! Two stat bonuses, a bonus to perception checks (important considering stat-scarcity), and this Curved Blade finesse business... yep, I'll go Elf.

Dexterity basically starts off strong but gets less important as levels increase. Acrobatics is good, yes, and you'll want some Dex but it's not the be-all end-all stat.

Long-term is great, but the immediate practicality is also important. I realize I can pull off a fair AC at 1st wizard level (so level 2 by my plan) with Mage ARmor and Shield. For sure extending spells as soon as I can. Immediately means for the first 10 levels or so, and being able to make jump and tumble checks, and stealth (woooo stealthy wizard fighter ftw), initiative boost, etc.

I think I'll be spending a lot of gold on scrolls, too, as it'd be a waste of a build to give up all those juicy feats if I don't cast spells out the wazoo.

Stat priority. Int is the most important attribute for your character, followed by Dex, Con and Strength in that order. So when you get your points, assign them from highest to lowest in that order. This is the kind of prioritization chart Char Ops uses when we don't know the exact stats or point buy in question yet. Though Dex's priority depends on whether you Finesse or not. Str could overtake it if you end up not Finessing.

Undead is a fine enemy choice. Evil Outsiders is another good one. Monstrous Humanoid and Humanoid (Giant) are both fair too, as is Dragons and Aberrations (though Dragons only kicks in rarely, of course). Really though, it's not so major; go with your heart on that one.

Undead should do nicely. Considering the magic backup of EK, I can fight them without Turn Undead.

I'm beginning to wish I was making up a Gestalt fighter/wizard. Feats for combat look like they'll come in handy for things like clearing minion-types, and doing more than just damage to one opponent a round.

[Eldariel]

Note that your first level should definitely be in Ranger. First hit die is maximized meaning you get straight 10 HP from that alone; that'll be a huge advantage in survivability early on. This also means you can wear a real armor until your Mage Armor picks up enough Caster Level to last for all the relevant time.

And frankly, most of the feats aren't worth the bother. Critical-line feats are simply too unreliable as you can at most have a 30% crit chance with 95% confirmation chance, and even then immunity is eminently available. Stuff like Lunge and company is just way situational to pay a feat for, and most of the combat styles are simply too feat intensive. Tripping is still a good one along with AoOs, but that's about it and both of those you can pick up anyways.

[cdrcjsn]

You need to think about what it is about playing a Swordmage that you really liked.

Is it the melee abilities that appealed to you or the the mobility?

Because frankly, spellcasters are still the top dogs in PF. A conjuration based wizard will get the ability to do lots of teleporting in small increments by 8th level.

Wizards also get a lot of touch attack spells that can take the place of melee attacks (at least until you learn polymorph and get other buff spells).

[Eldariel]

You need to think about what it is about playing a Swordmage that you really liked.

Is it the melee abilities that appealed to you or the the mobility?

Because frankly, spellcasters are still the top dogs in PF. A conjuration based wizard will get the ability to do lots of teleporting in small increments by 8th level.

Wizards also get a lot of touch attack spells that can take the place of melee attacks (at least until you learn polymorph and get other buff spells).

Frankly, 8 levels in Wizard straight just really begins to hurt you combat ability wise. And PF Polymorph isn't nearly the fix-it the 3.5 version was for Gishes. If the 8th level Conjuration ability were a Swift Action, it'd be nice, but as it stands, you might just as well just cast Dimension Door and get better range out of it along with the option to Quicken it with a Rod. As such, I think Conjuration Specialization isn't the best way to make his vision happen.

[fireinthedust]

I'm thinking this:

25 point build

Elf Ranger 1
Str 12 (+1 dmg)
Dex 17
Con 12
Int 19
Wis 10
Cha 8 (not liking this, as I like personality; but I know I'll need every bonus spell slot I can get, and

HP: 11
Fort: +3
Ref: +5
Will: +0

AC: 18 (Scale Mail +5, Dex +3)

Weapon: Elven Curved Blade (+4 to hit, 1d10+1 damage, 19-20/x2)

Feats: Weapon Finesse, Armour proficiency (light, medium, shields), Weapon proficiency (simple, martial, elven)

Skills (6+4):

Acrobatics +3
Climb +5 (r+1+3)
Knowledge: Arcana +5 (r+4)
Knowledge: Dungeoneering +8 (r+4+3)
Knowledge: Religion +5 (r+4)
Perception +6 (r+0+2+3)
Spellcraft +8 (r+4+3)
Stealth +7 (r+3+3)
Survival +4 (r+0+3)
Swim +5 (r+1+3)

Class abilities: Favored Enemy +1 (Undead), Track +1, Wild Empathy +0.


Starting Wealth (5d6x10gp) 180gp!
Equipment:
Scale Mail
Elven Curved Blade

And then the usual stuff: spellbook and components, I suppose, as he's studying the arcane for later. And rope, always need rope, and the basic adventuring tools.

[Eldariel]

Try for 14 Strength at least. It'll help a lot should you e.g. end up using Enlarge Person or Alter Self (both are fine buff spells), and the +2 damage is nothing to scoff at either. Not to mention it qualifies you for Power Attack.

By my count, you should be able to do:
14 Strength
16 Dex
12 Con
18 Int
10 Wis
10 Cha

Not perfect, but it'd do. Then you can place your level-ups in Int.

[fireinthedust]

thought of that. But the Int 19 is there because I want to get to +5 with Int ASAP. I want that bonus spell slot for Mage Armor and Shield. As soon as I get it, the concept is workable.

I don't know how sustainable that level of enchantment would be, but I can start scribing scrolls right away. Granted, I have to wait a few levels before I get that bonus slot. Still, it's a lot sooner if I start with 19 instead of 18.

EDIT: maybe 16 Dex could work. I'll be putting the level-up stats into Int anyways, so that +3 isn't going anywhere any time soon.

I'll think about that...