[Steam] Thread XVII: /sm_rename "Steam Thread": da]mexitt hr[a vise

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Degreaser is only good if you like to swap to the shotgun to finish off your enemy or switch to the axtiguisher for finishing off higher HP guys like heavies.

Backburner is a wonderful ambush tool. Don't discount it when you play maps that have alternate routes that lend themselves to ambushes. However keep in mind that you don't have the evasion abilities of the other 2 ambush classes: scout and spy.

[Dogmantra]

Actually, in Pyro vs Pyro, the Flamethrower chart goes more like Degreaser > Backburner > Flamethrower. The reason the Degreaser owns the crap out of the backburner is that it can keep it at range AND take shotgun shots at the same time, whereas the Backburner user has to use the appropriately ranged weapon—and the Degreaser user can change which one that is at any time, thanks to quick switch and airblast.

See: "if you just flame".

[Darth Mario]

See: "if you just flame".

Which is fairly effective for killing inexperienced pyros (as most things in the game are), but not anyone who uses their shotgun. If your enemy starts backpedaling, let them, just whip out your shotgun and back off yourself. If you use the degreaser, you'll have the extra damage on them. If they come barreling at you, airblast them back and whip out your shotgun if they're using the Backburner, or backpedal if they're on the normal flamethrower or another degreaser.

What I'm trying to say is, if you want to get good with Pyro, use the degreaser. It's just as good for ambushes as the Backburner (light, quick switch to axtinguisher, kill) and doesn't rely on the opponent not turning around to be effective. It gives you more versatility in regular combat, gives you an advantage in 1v1 against other Pyros, and is just generally more useful, even if you're poor with the airblast.

[Sum Pokemans]

So much advice O_O
It'd be like a realllly long post to respond to you all (and I'm at an internship, so they'd notice what I was doing and force me to do actual work (god forbid) =P)

HOWEVER, rest assured that Pokemans has read and absorbed what you have said. He will now use the flaregun less (even though it's amazing with the degreaser in close range if you can pull off that kinda hit, what with crits and all), and use a shotgun, even though it is boring and not nearly as lulz-worthy. He will also need to learn to reflect, and stop suiciding at huntsman snipers...

Also, he'll just follow around other pyros and screw up their ambushes, because spectating is boring

I can't spell, huh.

[Valaqil]

*flamethrower stuff*

You're giving sound advice, but you're giving the general flamethrower chart. He only posted about strict flamethrower vs flamethrower action. You're both right.

[MamaLuigi]

Wait. There are good Medics who aren't constantly strafing around, turning like a madman, and generally doing their best to annoy Spies with their 107% speed?



Step 1. Spectate AlterForm and The Atheist God.
Step 2. Copy them.
Step 3. Win.

Also what Valaqil said is something to bear in mind. Pyro vs Pyro fights will be won automatically based on the flamethrower (i.e. Backburner > Flamethrower = Degreaser) if you both flame, but if they're using the same flamethrower as you and are intent on flaming you, backpedal while flaming and they will die.

Oh, and, uh... if you're using the Degreaser, Medics will hugely outdamage you and can just heal themselves straight through your afterburn. So beware of the guy who can entirely neutralise your afterburn and kill you at the same time.

No one mentions me.... :(

Again.....

[The Linker]

Er.

Off hand, I'd say to ask AlterForm or Gentlemanly Pyro. I tool around on pyro when I'm feeling silly or want more spy-checks, so I'll throw in a few thoughts.

[MamaLuigi]

Er.

At least someone notices my gentlemanly skills as an infiltrator that excels in the art of burning and causing chaos.

[AlterForm]

First of all, let your backburner rot. I have never, ever, ever seen a situation where I wanted the BB over the FT or DG. Airblast >>> Crits.

Use your shotgun. It's your best weapon. You are basically a scout with more health and a slower movement speed that can airblast things. Flame things if they get in range, but only for the afterburn damage.

That's about how I play pyro.

I'll help you practice airblasts if you want.

This is ... sarcasm, I think. I think.

Backburner is _great_ for ambushes (esp. Heavies), but not the best weapon if you're serious about Pyro. Use the vanilla flamethrower or the degreaser if you can get one. Same goes for the flare gun. It's fun, sometimes useful, but not your best choice. Use the shotgun. Use it double on other pyros. Don't waste time burning a pyro.

Burning a pyro can work if you know they're on low health or you can get them to chase after you while you backpedal. This happens surprisingly often.

If your target goes to range, switch to shotgun, maybe run. Running blindly at opponents leads to death. They'll backpedal and shoot you, you'll do no damage.

Indeed. Personally, I recommend engaging with the shotgun if they're alone, and running away if they have friends.

If you find a heavy, light him on fire and swap to Axetinguisher. The extra damage is amazing. run the **** away.

Fixed that for you. You will not down a heavy in one axestinguisher swing. Much less so if he's overhealed. About they only time I would recommend engaging a heavy if you're a pyro is if he's distracted and already on fire; your one crit swing will likely make him easy pickings for the rest of your team.

Lighting a heavy on fire is also often a poor idea, since any heavy with a bit of sense sandvich will immediately toss it at his feet, causing you to flub the axe and get a faceful of boolet.

If you are low on hp and someone chases you at close range, switch to flamethrower and run backwards. Due to the way flames work, the flames are longer when you're running backward than forward. They'll chase you to their own death.

As mentioned before, some pyros are dumb enough to be the guy getting toasted by this trick. Don't be those pyros.

Learn how to reflect rockets and pipes. You'll save lives. I can't give you tips here because I'm not good at it.

Rockets: Dead easy. Point and click.
Pipes: Hard to get where you want them to go, but easy to get them to get not-in-my-or-my-teammates'-faces. You can also airblast ones on the ground to minimize splash damage, but be sure to step away when you do because you'll take the splash damage yourself still.
DH Rockets: Hard mode rocket reflect. You have to be way away from the soldier, or else be good at predicting his rhythm*.
Black Box: Rockets, but you get health for them, and you get health for reflecting them. It's like they want to give you a kill.

However, note that most competent soldiers will immediately whip out their shotgun as soon as they see you. Make a judgment: engage and go for the axestinguish, or disengage and make your chance of survival go way up.

*A note on rhythm: Most soldiers have one. Most soldiers use the same one; i.e., hold down m1 until they're out of rockets. Some like to mix it up, waiting an airblast beat after each rocket hoping you'll waste your blast. Some mix it up even further, treating it like they have to avoid the Duneworm. Learn to airblast with your own rhythm that counters these, then be ready to swap it up when they change their rhythm slightly to compensate.

Be sure to extinguish your teammates with airblast. PLEASE. Especially the medic!

You are a fireman. You bring the fire, and you put it out.

WhhoooooooOOOOOOOooooooOOOOOOOooooooOOOOOO!!!! (That's a firetruck, by the way)


[EDIT]:

(even though it's amazing with the degreaser in close range if you can pull off that kinda hit, what with crits and all)

This is intriguing. I have never thought to try this. Other pyros, you guys ever give this a go?

[Byrnbot08]

So much advice O_O
It'd be like a realllly long post to respond to you all (and I'm at an internship, so they'd notice what I was doing and force me to do actual work (god forbid) =P)

HOWEVER, rest assured that Pokemans has read and absorbed what you have said. He will now use the flaregun less (even though it's amazing with the degreaser in close range if you can pull off that kinda hit, what with crits and all), and use a shotgun, even though it is boring and not nearly as lulz-worthy. He will also need to learn to reflect, and stop suiciding at huntsman snipers...

Also, he'll just follow around other pyros and screw up their ambushes, because spectating is boring

I can't spell, huh.

By the way, as a person who has clocked a lot of hours as a certain other class, I would like to suggest the following general tips:

Exploit weaknesses. Most battles in TF2 are never fought on even grounds. Aim for the injured, on fire and Jarate'd whenever possible.

Learn to prioritise. Who is on the top of the other team? Check the kill-notices. Is he/she getting a majority of his points from killing your team, assisting his or capping/pushing intel/point or kart? Stop him from doing what he/she does.

Each class has a comfort zone, and it is best if you play those classes yourself to find these zones. After a mile in their shoes, abuse them relentlessly when you return to your normal class.

Exploit your class' strengths. For example, the Engineer has three buildings. Place SGs in combat areas/high traffic zones, place dispensers near battlezones with few healthkits/ammo, put teleporters out for your team and place exits near as many routes and exploitable locations as possible.

[ShortOne]

This is intriguing. I have never thought to try this. Other pyros, you guys ever give this a go?

No, but then again, I haven't played with the flare gun since I first found it. Mayhaps it's time for a change.

[Treayn]

Phantom once told me "Play spy like you're in a really f***ed up neighborhood, but roll like you totally belong." or something like that. My neighborhood happens to be fairly screwed.

1) Exactly how you play spy. Don't look people right in the face, whilst running straight towards them. Maybe... backpedal towards them? Disguised as medic/low health class, spamming "Help!"? Works wonders.

2) Park Slope is in no way a bad neighborhood. No way in hell.

I said CAUTIOUS. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try. That means, though, that said drolkcal tends to turn around a lot. If you want to stab him, it's preferrable to wait for a good opportunity, because "valuable use of my time" isn't "spending 15 seconds on a respawn because I decided to go haywire on a player who knows what he's doing and paid with my life for no benefit at all".

Drolkcal is easy to stab. So is Djinn. Just at very specific points in time.

If they're idle, you will probably not stab them. If they're busy, you most certainly will.

If they're at their spawn/not at the battlefront, there won't be any enemies, and they'll be pretty aware.

If they've spotted an enemy, you will almost certainly be able to shank them.

If Drolkcal sees an enemy scout/soldier/demo etc, and is at a decent amount of health, 4/5 times you will be able to kill him because he's too busy shooting at your teammate.

Get them while they're distracted, not just when they're merely unaware.

[Valaqil]

Burning a pyro can work if you know they're on low health or you can get them to chase after you while you backpedal. This happens surprisingly often.

As mentioned before, some pyros are dumb enough to be the guy getting toasted by this trick. Don't be those pyros.

Apologies. I wasn't clear. I view the backpedal trick as superceding the "Don't burn pyros" tip. To clarify: If a Pyro is in front of you, I'd suggest shotgun or not engaging. If he's willing to chase you, of course you should backup and burn. It's amazing how many times that works for me. Especially on Nucleus, though I'm not sure why there.

Fixed that for you.

This, however, is news to me. Sort of. I wholeheartedly agree, but I see other Pyros pull it off consistently. If I see a Heavy as a Pyro, I stay the heck away. I know that I can't take him; I'm not that good. But I often see Heavies killed that way. I'm not sure what circumstances make it work.

[shadow_archmagi]

Maybe... backpedal towards them?

this is exactly how I interact with people in bad neighborhoods.

[Sum Pokemans]

1)
2) Park Slope is in no way a bad neighborhood. No way in hell.

Pshhhh, Sammich is the one in Park Slope (I wish I were, I'm just real damned close Y_Y)
THIS is where pokemans lives (censored especially to instill stalkery sadness)
EDIT: cept now it's gone, hope you bookmarked that awesome paparazzi shot =O

Also, I promise you that the flaregun thing is WELL worth while to learn to do. Since none of you appear to have actually done it, ima stick with it, since I outgun pyros, and the random flare confuses the hell out of scouts and medium classes. And that's what pyro thrives on- confusion.

this is exactly how I interact with people in bad neighborhoods.

I forgot to mention that, but it is actually amazingly deceptive (or at least it seems to be). Learn to walk backwards in areas where you won't bump into anyone, and most people just assume you're hurt or lost (not to mention medics will pretty much heal you every time you do this, unless they are good at their job).

[Mtg_player_zach]

In regards to Alter.

Not really, what I said is slightly exagerrated, but not much. As a pyro, you aren't actually all that good at close quarters combat. Soldier is better at it, Demo is (usually) better at it, Scout is better at it, Heavy is better at it. You have sniper, medic, spy, engie remaining. Sniper should die to you in close quarters, but if he can aim with the smg, you could easily die. Medic isn't particularly good, but if you charge him with your flamethrower he'll kill you with his blut. Spy should die. Engie should die if he doesn't have a dispenser or a sentry nearby. And he can't aim with either his pistol or his shotgun. Doesn't look good for the pyro, where it starts looking better is when we look at his shotgun, flare gun, and his Axetinguisher/Super sledge thing. If you flame someone when they enter your range you'll have a good amount of burn damage, it's continuing to burn them that decreases your survival chances. It doesn't kill that quickly. Now you have a shotgun and an axetinguisher. All you need to kill should be one puff of flame with your degreaser, airblast, proceed to shotgun once or twice, or axetinguish once. I prefer shotgun, it's more reliable and leaves you better able to defend against the enemies teammates once the initial target is dead. Remember your shotgun should do about 70-100 damage from close range, 40-70ish mid range, and from 10-40 at long range. That's all from ONE shotgun shell, you have six of these. If an enemy is injured all it should take is a puff of flame and one shotgun shell, if full health, maybe two, depending on class. Here is a guideline for what to do. If the enemy is aware of you then use your shotgun on approach, flame once, airblast, then shotgun once more to finish. If the enemy isn't aware of you just burn them, or burn and axe.

Now different classes you should behave in different ways. If there is a soldier, you should have your degreaser out if he has his rocket launcher out. If he switches shotgun, so should you. If he switches back, so should you, Soldier is tough to kill for you. If you can get a flame in good, if you can't and you are losing, then retreat--being ready to reflect rockets. Demoman is tricky too. A little harder to approach because of stickies. You have to be good with reflecting to win here. If you try and shotgun him he kills you with pipes. If you try to charge him and burn him, he kills you. So you want to be reflecting like crazy, when he starts reloading move in. Shotgun should be more efficient (once he is reloading) as demo's are pretty easy to kill when reloading. Scouts you want to set on fire, and then get shotgun blasts in, unless they try and stay really close to you, in which case burn them. If they retreat, then shotgun them. Pyro's you should shotgun when they have the flamethrower out while backpeddaling, if they switch to shotgun strafe around to their side and flame them Briefly, then quickly switch back to shotgun and finish. Engies, you can usually circle strafe level one or mini sentries. Light them on fire, shotgun. Don't try and take out sentries though if you can help it, you'll probably die. Spies, just burn them, and spycheck everything. No reason not to. Medics, you should light, and then shotgun, if you are getting hurt a lot by the medic then retreat. Snipers you should burn. Heavies you should avoid. If you want to fight them, act like a soldier, peek in and out of cover like a soldier would with rockets using your shotgun. If they have a medic, don't bother. If they are distracted and you think you can get to them, go in flame and axetinguish.

Approach combat zones with your shotgun out, it is unlikely that when you first see an enemy they will already be in flame range. Only switch to your flamethrower when you are in flaming range. Or there are soldiers and demos. When using your flamethrower don't use it for long, it requires you to charge straight at your enemy to kill them. This in turn makes you easy to kill. Use it for the fire requirement on the axetinguisher, and for the afterburn.

This is just my preference on playing pyro, it is not the only way to play pyro. Others such as alter rely more on the axetinguisher and such. They aren't wrong and neither am I. I happen to find the shotgun to be more reliable in the end. Preference. If you like the axetinguisher, listen more to Alterform. If you like the shotgun. Listen to me and him. He's still got more hours than me.


Edit: Flaregun should work about the same as shotgun, maybe a little less effective and more of a learning to aim it (it's sort of like pipes, in that you have to lead them). But if you like flaregun, replace shotgun in above with flaregun. Except against probably scouts and pyro's. Don't flare them. Well, maybe flare the scouts.

[Science Officer]

That out of the way, disguises are needed. They're not reliable, but just run Your Eternal Reward and see how difficult it is to land backstabs on even a semi-competent team.

9: Rely on your cloak as much as you can. Disguise fools only Sentries.

I think I agree with Winthur more here. Since I crafted the Your Eternal Reward (and thus, stopped using disguises) I have tripled my play time as Spy, and also my effectiveness.
Of course, this was just playing on ChHa, so "semi-competent" team...

Once I get the hang of cloaking/flanking/stuff, I'll switch to the knife and try disguises.

Anyone want to play some alien swarm tomorrow? It's been a while, and it's pretty fun.

Yes. If timezones/availability co-align.

[Dogmantra]

Medic isn't particularly good,

Did... did you just call Medic bad at close range combat?

[chiasaur11]

Yes. If timezones/availability co-align.

Up for it, if I have time.

Definitely would Thursday.

Aliens will be quoted.

[Winthur]

I think I agree with Winthur more here. Since I crafted the Your Eternal Reward (and thus, stopped using disguises) I have tripled my play time as Spy, and also my effectiveness.
Of course, this was just playing on ChHa, so "semi-competent" team...

Once I get the hang of cloaking/flanking/stuff, I'll switch to the knife and try disguises.

To be honest, disguises do provide you with a little window of opportunity, usually exactly the kind of one you need to stab your chosen targets and get away. You just don't stick out like a sore thumb in a disguise, but if anyone decides to give you some attention, your disguise usually becomes a nuisance. That's why you should rely on cloak mostly, and avoid being seen at all. It simply lowers the risk of someone deciding he doesn't like the way you walk around.

[Aron Times]

Did... did you just call Medic bad at close range combat?

DOGMANTRA HULK SMASH in 3... 2... 1...

[The Linker]

Alright, tentative plan: Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children will stream here at 7:30 EST, or about forty minutes from now.

If anyone can't make that but is interested, by all means, lemmee know. Postponing is certainly an option.

[Mtg_player_zach]

Did... did you just call Medic bad at close range combat?

Compared to classes like soldier and heavy, yes. If you can aim a blut, you can do surprisingly well however.

[Dogmantra]

Compared to classes like soldier and heavy, yes. If you can aim a blut, you can do surprisingly well however.

Against Solider, yeah, but against Heavy... Um... if you have no A or D key, I can see that.

[Mtg_player_zach]

Slightly off topic, but, I just downloaded League of legends. I'm looking to maybe play a game or two tonight. I'm posting it in this thread, because the people who read this thread are the people I want to play my first game with.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Slightly off topic, but, I just downloaded League of legends. I'm looking to maybe play a game or two tonight. I'm posting it in this thread, because the people who read this thread are the people I want to play my first game with.

Well, as I mentioned, I won't be around this evening until very late.

[Mtg_player_zach]

Against Solider, yeah, but against Heavy... Um... if you have no A or D key, I can see that.

Also, most medics can't aim the thing. There are 3 or 4 that I know of. There is you, me, griever. We are probably the most aggressive medics. Actually griever has taken it upon himself to hunt me down as medic whenever I play sniper, "for killing his soldiers". Why he is more effective than his soldiers, I don't know. But it scares me.



Also, the Alien swarm game that happened was a lot of fun. We found out that brutal was, well, brutal. Insane was adequately named, and that hard was just right (for a party of 3). Highlight of it (for me) was the use of a lot of drugs (adrenaline), and after suri and unnamed dying at the first objective in the map (them dying isn't the highlight) (where you cross a bridge with the flying ship shooting things for you), I complete the hack (I'm tech-vegas), and I escape the room with the computer (suri and unnamed die in the doorway =( ) and then make my way through the entire level to reach the safe room with 1hp remaining (I really thought the second hack would kill me with no support). Most amazing run i've ever had in alien swarm. It's moments like these that make the game amazing.

[Dogmantra]

Also, most medics can't aim the thing.

That's a problem with the player, not the class. It's like saying Soldier's Shotgun sucks because most Soldiers don't know when to use it.

[Mtg_player_zach]

That's a problem with the player, not the class. It's like saying Soldier's Shotgun sucks because most Soldiers don't know when to use it.

Right, but when giving general advice to a player on what to do regarding playing vs certain classes, saying that the medic is not an offensive class is a fair statement. There are obvious exceptions to things like this. I'm not going to tell him to run away from medic's because griever, yourself, and myself could kill him with needles.

[Dogmantra]

Right, but when giving general advice to a player on what to do regarding playing vs certain classes, saying that the medic is not an offensive class is a fair statement. There are obvious exceptions to things like this. I'm not going to tell him to run away from medic's because griever, yourself, and myself could kill him with needles.

But a good Medic should be able to. Why give any advice about playing at all if you're just going to assume your opponents can't use their weapons?