Mind Flayer Eating Habits - Why Evil?

[Lord_Gareth]

Let us, for the moment, ignore Mind Flayer culture (with the enslavement and all). Instead, let us focus on their breeding and feeding needs. In order to breed, Mind Flayers must take humanoids and infect them with their young. In order to survive (see Lords of Madness), they must consume living brains from sapient creatures. Both of these activities are depicted as evil.

Why? If they need to do these things to ensure their survival as a species, they are unpleasant but ultimately necessary. It's not as though someone with their brain eaten doesn't go to their appropriate afterlife (though the state of someone who's been flayer-fied is a little fuzzier). I honestly cannot fathom the bit that's evil about these actions if they are motivated by survival.

Subtopic: If you wanted to create a society of good-aligned mind flayers, what would their culture be like?

[Jacque]

The evil label which mind flayers have, is not limited to their diet or reproduction. While you might be able to argue that its a question of survival and reproduction as a race you also have to take into account how they interact with other species as well as their own race members. Mind flayers are evil in all the aspects of their existance - not only when it comes to reproduction and diet.

[shadow_archmagi]

Mindflayers are ruled over by an Elder Brain, which they revere and obey. The Elder Brain is a super-powerful psionist who obliterates dissenters as soon as their subconscious shows signs of doubt.

Mindflayers infect and consume brains not just as a means for survival, but because they genuinely think they're the superior beings and your death is unimportant. In fact, they think you were meant to die. Eating you is like using a battery.

[PopcornMage]

Subtopic: If you wanted to create a society of good-aligned mind flayers, what would their culture be like?

Well, the Elves with their Necromancer religion in Eberron is close, but I could borrow from some science fiction examples where the goal is to join the Great Mind and become part of the One and Many!

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ETA: The example of Julian May's Galactic Milieu may qualify.

[Sipex]

Good aligned Mindflayer society, I imagine, would consist of a small pocket of flayers and many many other races. People would need to volunteer to become mindflayers (is that how they work, they convert or is it more akin to alien where the young kill the host?).

From there they'd need some 'good' way of getting sustinance. Criminal executions would be able to provide some but probably not enough depending on how often they need to feed. Donations of brains from the recently deceased would help and possibly having parties of mercenaries kidnapping sentient evil creatures (goblins and the like) to have their brains scooped out.

[HunterOfJello]

In d&d, good and evil aren't two abstract concepts that can be judged through actions independently by philosophical though. Good and Evil are magical, measurable forces that act on individuals and the world. Questioning different cultures within d&d based upon different ethical perspectives is a waste of time because the concepts aren't abstract when divine magic is involved.

You can tell something is measurably 'good' by casting a Detect Good spell or witnessing Positive Energy. You can tell something is measurably 'evil' by casting a Detect Evil spell or witnessing Negative Energy.

Mindflayers and their habits are evil because if you cast the spells in the d&d multiverse to determine their alignment, the results come out with a capital E for Evil.

[Mordaenor]

An interesting question. Personally, I define "evil" in terms of any sentient creature which causes the harm, death, or suffering of another sentient creature without provocation. (And yes by these terms, I also consider an adventuring party which goes and kills a bunch of orcs "just because" also to be evil.) So if the Mind Flayers need to feed on other sentients, then they cannot help but be an evil society. They couldn't develop any other way. In order for a society of "good" Mind Flayers to develop, they would need to find a way to survive with out harming other sentients, i.e. by feeding and breeding on non-sentient animals, or even plants . (Yes! Vegan Mind-flayers, I love it!)

[akma]

It`s easier to make man eating creatures evil then not. Besides, it can be rationalized, since after being forced to kill people, you less value human life, and eventully you don`t care about humans and killing them becomes naturel for you.

Mindflayers and their habits are evil because if you cast the spells in the d&d multiverse to determine their alignment, the results come out with a capital E for Evil.

So no matter how a mind flayer will behave, he would count as evil?

[PopcornMage]

Or volunteers.

It is the great glory in life!

[Yuki Akuma]

but I could borrow from some science fiction examples where the goal is to join the Great Mind and become part of the One and Many!

That is what Mind Flayer religion is all about!

[Lord_Gareth]

@Hunter - So, essentially speaking, Good and Evil are both sadistic opponents playing a gigantic game with human lives and they're both jerks?

Personally, I can see the volunteer breeding angle working perfectly. As far as brains, that becomes somewhat more complicated, since they need sapients in order to survive. Criminals and prisoners of war, eaten humanely, would be solidly gray in my book. Perhaps combat-brain eating as well? It's not like it's any more or less cruel than a sword or a fireball, though you end up with mind flayers as a mercenary culture then.

[Tanuki Tales]

So no matter how a mind flayer will behave, he would count as evil?

Seeing as there's a redeemed Mind Flayer in the BoED? No.

[Jergmo]

Mind Flayers are also evil because of Sensory Orbs (like what the Society of Sensation in Planescape has, only affecting a wide radius and being all over their cities). Developing Illithids don't yet understand emotions, and their development is largely dependent on the emotions they're exposed to in their formative stage. The most common emotions present in the Sensory Orbs of an Illithid society are those that promote the general sense of racial pride/superiority over all the other races. They're molded from a young age to be sadistic power-hungry monsters. These are described in Lords of Madness.

Me, I like Illithids without the Elder Brain, traveling in small groups. They're often Chaotic and still Evil - they're hedonists for emotions, doing things like having their slaves engage in death matches and mass whoopie so they can revel in the pain, passion and pleasure.

[PopcornMage]

@Hunter - So, essentially speaking, Good and Evil are both sadistic opponents playing a gigantic game with human lives and they're both jerks?

That's the Babylon 5 interpretation. Sorta.

Criminals and prisoners of war, eaten humanely, would be solidly gray in my book.

Except if you do that, then their experiences become that of the brain, because aren't Mindflayers what they eat in a very literal sense??

[Terumitsu]

I created a group of good mindflayers a while back, stating that the need for all mindflayers to eat brains was for the latent psychic energy that allowed them to 'ground' their own power. The small group of good mindflayers found an alternative way to get that grounding psychic energy by way of a technomagic machine that distilled the faint psionic energy given off by people when they dream. It was less effective as it took more people to gather the same level of grounding power but it was entirely nonlethal.

Thier group could only grow through recruitment of other mindflayers, though, as they weren't about to go turning other people into more of them. That would be mistreatment of another sentiant species.

I should add that this was a radical movement on the fringe of 'standard' mindflayer society. They did not care so much for the Elder Brain either..

Anyway, my two copper on the topic.

[shadow_archmagi]

aren't Mindflayers what they eat in a very literal sense??

I believe that they experience some random memories and sensations; a small impact at best. No mindflayer ever said "Man after eating all those Paladins I really want to go fight for some JUSTICE or something"

[Terumitsu]

I believe that they experience some random memories and sensations; a small impact at best. No mindflayer ever said "Man after eating all those Paladins I really want to go fight for some JUSTICE or something"

Actually.... That sounds like a pretty awesome character concept in the making there. A wierd one, but I'd like to give that a try some time. Do you mind if I steal that idea for later use?

[Keld Denar]

So no matter how a mind flayer will behave, he would count as evil?

No. Mindflayers don't have the [Evil] subtype (like evil outsiders), nor do they have the [Undead] type. Those are the only creatures that radiate evil regardless of their actual alignment. If you pinged a friendly, pleasant, helpful, and generally upstanding mindflayer with Detect Evil, it would not show. Always evil, as defined in the alignment section of the MM, means that 95% of the creatures are of that alignment. Thus, 5% of mindflayers are non-evil, with a very small percent of those having the potential to be good as well.

That is what Mind Flayer religion is all about!

The funny thing is according to Lords of Madness and the old 2e ILLITHIDS! book, the religion is a lie. The elder brain propogates this religion to ensure mindless devotion to its will. According to the books, in reality, a dead mindflayer's brain that is placed in the elder brain pool is simply consumed for all of its deliciousness the same as any lesser being's brain matter. There is no collective consciousness formed by the merging of many flayer brains, just the malevolent overmind imposing its will on lesser illithid.

[Yuki Akuma]

I believe that they experience some random memories and sensations; a small impact at best. No mindflayer ever said "Man after eating all those Paladins I really want to go fight for some JUSTICE or something"

Well, there is a PrC where they can gain skills and stuff from brains. But yeah, it's not a basic ability - they have to work at it.

Although Elder Brains can retain all knowledge and memories of brains they eat - but that's it, just the knowledge and memories. No gestalt entities here.

[Tengu_temp]

If you need to eat sapient creatures to survive, then as long as you prey or innocents, you're evil. Yes, even though you need to do this to survive. There are non-evil ways of satisfying such hunger, and "I do that in order to survive!" is no excuse for a good character. And if it turns out that you absolutely must kill innocents in order to survive, and there is no other option, then a good character would commit suicide, unless his goals really are worth so many innocent deaths. And then he'd be constantly filled with regret.

Same for other man-eating races. "I'm a vampire who kills innocents to survive, but I'm still good, I do that in order to survive!" is complete bull.

[PopcornMage]

Suicide? That would be sinful!

Alignment, it isn't the can of worms for D&D, I don't know what is.

[Tengu_temp]

Huh? Show me a single example where DND calls suicide (the general act, not a specific instance of it) an evil act.

[Godless_Paladin]

You're not going to go far if you pretend that WotC presents a coherent and sensible take on morality throughout D&D. End of story.

[Tengu_temp]

Nope, but it builds foundations that we can base our more in-depth and coherent analysis on.

Also, on Illithids: Spoon of Sustenance, costs 5400 gold (which is nothing for such a high-magic culture), provides enough food for 4 mind flayers. In a good/neutral Illithid society, those things should be incredibly common. There's no excuse for them to eat brains.

[PopcornMage]

Nope, but it builds foundations that we can base our more in-depth and coherent analysis on.

It's a very unstable and shoddy foundation if the numerous arguments I've seen about it are any indication.

[Godless_Paladin]

It's a very unstable and shoddy foundation if the numerous arguments I've seen about it are any indication.

Indeed. I wouldn't want to build on that foundation... what if there was an earthquake?

[PopcornMage]

Earthquake? I'm worried about dying in the quicksand!

[Prime32]

Re: Memories

According to fluff, mind flayers occasionally retain some traits from the host the tadpole was implanted into, but they try to hide them. They have a legend of a being called "The Adversary", a tadpole which will absorb its host's mind completely and be taken over by it.

Mind flayers don't technically need a host, but they mutate into horrifying monsters if they're not implanted. Being from the future, it's implied that they're a hyper-evolved form of humanity and that they need host bodies to prevent them from evolving any further.

[Tanuki Tales]

Nope, but it builds foundations that we can base our more in-depth and coherent analysis on.

Also, on Illithids: Spoon of Sustenance, costs 5400 gold (which is nothing for such a high-magic culture), provides enough food for 4 mind flayers. In a good/neutral Illithid society, those things should be incredibly common. There's no excuse for them to eat brains.

Didn't know that item could create brain matter.

[bloodtide]

The In Game answer is that Illithids Chose to infect and kill people, on purpose. The illithid race was not born infecting and eating people, they chose to modify themselves that way. It's their fault they are addicted to the two.


And, as been said, you can judge Good and Evil in D&D by the gray areas. You could run around all day saying what is good and evil and never, ever be 'right'.

But D&D says, ''If you do X, you are evil" and ''If you do Y you are good". There is no gray.