Atheist Cloistered Cleric Character (help with domains and stuff)

[TheLonelyScribe]

I'm running a Ebberon game where most of my players are new, so they give me a character concept and I create the actual character. One of my players likes the idea of playing an academic from Morgrave University, basically the only proper academic in the whole establishment. He is the only member of his department, and has no students. His field of research is 'anti-deistic metaphysics' (how a world could exist without gods and how divine casters could function without them).

Now, he's a cloistered cleric (following a philosophy rather than a god), and he's going to be the main healer of the party. I need help with what domains he should have (from the SRD, the Ebberon campaign setting, Draconomicon, or the Forgotten Realms setting). He automatically has Knowledge, I think that Magic might be a good second one, as an intimate understanding of magic is required to know how the universe could function without gods, and maybe Mentalism or Meditation as a third, to help focus his mental energies. I don't know though, so please give me some tips and ideas.

I also need help with whether I should replace his 'turn undead' class feature. I briefly considered 'turn divine caster', but there is a paladin in the party. Any ideas on some ACFs that would fit with the character concept? Or maybe even creative ways of making turn undead fit?

[Yuki Akuma]

Why doesn't Turn Undead fit?

[Tyrmatt]

Law Domain might be worthwhile if you subscribe to an orderly universe that runs itself.

Is there a Logic domain?

Also, don't scrap turn undead. Undead have nothing to do with gods, just the existence of negative energy, which if you channel positive, you must accept it exists.

[TheLonelyScribe]

Yeah, I'm not saying that turn undead doesn't fit at all, but it would be nice to have something that 'clicks' a little more with his character concept.

And, sadly, there is no logic domain.

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't see why Turn Undead doesn't 'click' with his character concept. He can spontaneously turn prepared spells into Cure spells, can't he?

And there is a Mind domain, if you think that works. But it's mostly psychic-flavoured.

[ericgrau]

Turning undead is a form of channeling positive energy to combat a negative energy based being. That's perfectly fine for him. It requires a holy symbol, but so do most spells. Deal with the holy symbol the same way for both.

In a world where multiple gods really do exist, I dunno how well the logic domain fits . There is a great deal of research involved but knowledge covers that already.

The planes are probably heavily linked to his research. As are various energies and forces. Maybe you could find something related there.

[Yuki Akuma]

...But the whole point of Eberron is that the gods are distant and may not actually exist.

An atheist works fine in Eberron.

[Godskook]

Why not switch to archivist? All the divine casting without the fuzzy issues of being in a class which is actually based on serving a deity.

[Eloel]

Why not switch to archivist? All the divine casting without the fuzzy issues of being in a class which is actually based on serving a deity.

There's no base class, to my knowledge, that is based on serving a deity.
Clerics can serve an ideal
Paladins serve the stick up their arse
Favored Soul are served by the deities (yea, somehow)

[TheLonelyScribe]

Archivist is a little dark-knowledgey for the concept, and don't forget it's a new player, so they won't know what scrolls to buy or which spells to pick out of their huge list.

EDIT: Actually, I might just make a Logic domain.

Domain Power: Twice per day you can logically determine the likely result of your action, and have it happen that way. Before you roll any die you may declare that you want to use this power. Instead of rolling the die you simply take the average result, rounded down.

1. Calm Animals
2. Calm Emotions
3. Suggestion
4. Discern Lies
5. Awaken
6. Hold Monster
7. Hold Person, Mass
8. Mind Blank
9. Dominate Monster


What do you think?

[Godskook]

Archivist is a little dark-knowledgey for the concept

Not really. The ability's name is "Dark Knowledge" but in practice and in how its treated in the text lends itself to a more "I studied a lot" feel than a "dark secrets" feel.

and don't forget it's a new player, so they won't know what scrolls to buy or which spells to pick out of their huge list.

So? While the archivist spell list is much larger in theory, its far more customizable and controllable by the DM in practice, since they're reliant on you to provide them with what scrolls are available for purchase at all. Just make sure iconic spells drop as scrolls, and he can customize as he goes.

There's no base class, to my knowledge, that is based on serving a deity.
Clerics can serve an ideal
Paladins serve the stick up their arse
Favored Soul are served by the deities (yea, somehow)

Clerics and Paladins are servants, and while what they serve is up for debate, the fact that they serve is evident in the rules they must obey. Both can be stripped of their powers by divine mandate.

Favored souls are actually required, explicitly, to serve a deity in CDivine, but no "ex-favored soul" rules are ever explained. Personally, I assume this to be in line with the idea that a favored soul is the embodiment of some portion of his god's desires.

All 3 have alignment restrictions based on who or what they serve. Archivists, by contrast, have no alignment restrictions at all. You can be a CE archivist worshipper of Heironeous, or a LG archivist of Tiamat. It really doesn't matter, since an Archivist's mastery of divine magic is wholly and utterly divorced from any sort of 'service'. He's literally a wizard of divine energies, rather than the traditional arcane.

[gorfnab]

Divine Magician from Complete Mage might give you an interesting Domain option. Otherwise Magic, Spell, Rune, Planning, Patience, Balance, or Portal may be appropriate Domain choices as well. For Turn Undead the only really interesting ACF is Divine Counterspell from Complete Mage, however I would strongly recommend with sticking with Turn Undead mainly for the purposes of Divine Metamagic.

[Myth]

Or just take the planning domain. It's all he does mostly - sit in his sad lonly office and plans for a world without gods. It's also a very solid choice mechanics wise.

[TheLonelyScribe]

Actually, you're right, Archivist does seem to fit rather well. I'm sure I can railroad him into not-redundant options. Thanks for the help.

[Leon]

Scribe ACF from Dragon 353.

Replaces Turn Undead with the Scribe scroll feat and a 25% reduction to EXP costs.
There a quite a number of other ones but thats the one im using for a Academic type PC atm.


Mild Rant Warning

Spoiler

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(formerly was a Archivist... the class sucks if you cant vary your spell list as intended, so if your going to let them play one do let them have non cleric spells asap and not offer to make up the diffence of 8 levels of no loot or chance to go learn from the realevent classes in some scrolls when told that your going to convert the PC into a Cloistered cleric

[Godless_Paladin]

I'm running a Ebberon game

Eberron, not Ebberon.

1 B, 2 Rs.
Aberration, not abberation.

Sorry, this is like Rogue v. Rouge for me.

I'm running a Ebberon game where most of my players are new, so they give me a character concept and I create the actual character. One of my players likes the idea of playing an academic from Morgrave University, basically the only proper academic in the whole establishment. He is the only member of his department, and has no students. His field of research is 'anti-deistic metaphysics' (how a world could exist without gods and how divine casters could function without them).

Now, he's a cloistered cleric (following a philosophy rather than a god), and he's going to be the main healer of the party. I need help with what domains he should have (from the SRD, the Ebberon campaign setting, Draconomicon, or the Forgotten Realms setting). He automatically has Knowledge, I think that Magic might be a good second one, as an intimate understanding of magic is required to know how the universe could function without gods, and maybe Mentalism or Meditation as a third, to help focus his mental energies. I don't know though, so please give me some tips and ideas.

I also need help with whether I should replace his 'turn undead' class feature. I briefly considered 'turn divine caster', but there is a paladin in the party. Any ideas on some ACFs that would fit with the character concept? Or maybe even creative ways of making turn undead fit?

The Planning or Time domains are some of of the better ones, mechanically speaking, and may fit your vision. The Law domain is good for Law Devotion if you have access to Complete Champion. The Rune domain gets you Scribe Scroll, which is certainly handy and fitting for an academic.

Also, there are a coupla alternatives you may want to look at for the Magic Domain: There's also the Divine Magician variant that lets you construct your own domain from the wizard list (limited to certain schools). There's also the Spell Domain.

As for Turn Undead, use Divine Metamagic (Though, I wouldn't advise combining it with Persistent Spell in 95% of games, because that is crossing the line to me), Divine Spell Power (Combine with a decent Cha, True Holy Symbol, 5 ranks in Knowledge Religion, and a Circlet of Persuasion for starters and you're guaranteed to get a good result) or Divine Defiance (Counterspell as an immediate action! Hot diggity! You may also appreciate the thematic side of things)

Especially if you grab Divine Defiance, you may want to consider picking up the Inquisition domain (you can get it practically for free by grabbing the first level of Church Inquisitor at around level 4)

[Diarmuid]

GP, I'm going to guess that a new player might end up a bit overwhelmed by those Turn Undead options, especially when combined in such ways as you described.

As for the domains, I think Planning or Knowledge might be good ones RP wise. Magic while sounding nice, doesnt actually infer any beneficial, additional knowledge of Magic. I think you work that in with skill points in the appropriate Knowledge skills.

[Psyren]

Domains that could fit a "skeptic cleric":

Knowledge
Luck
Meditation
Oracle
Planning
Time

Any of the really "magic-y" ones could fit too, if they believe in the divine as simply a source of energy to be tapped: Magic, Mysticism, Spell, Rune.

For a more negative viewpoint, e.g. seeing organized religion as a farce or hoodwink: Illusion, Trickery, Pride, Destiny.

***

As for turn undead, I agree with Yuki that it can fit even if you don't worship an entity. I'm not sure what would be on the holy symbol you present though

[Last Laugh]

One possibility for an anti-god cleric is the Ur-Priest (Cdivine)
If you are low level this is less of an option

To become an Ur-Priest one must give up all previous divine casting.

The class gains 9th level divine spells (cast off wisdom >.>) and several 'anti-god' abilities:
Divine spell resistance 15 vs outsiders only (this is kinda nifty)
Can combine lower spell slots to form 1 higher spell slot
New slot=(Slot 1+slot 2)*3/4
Steal spell like ability (this is his coolest ability) any creature within 50 ft can have it's spell-like ability 'stolen' (it still retains use of it, the priest can use it too)
Summon an efreeti and steal it's wishes.

[TheLonelyScribe]

Eberron, not Ebberon.

1 B, 2 Rs.
Aberration, not abberation.

Ooooh, sorry. I always get that one mixed up. And don't worry, I get just as annoyed.

Anyway, I think I'm going to go with the automatic Knowledge domain, the Magic domain, and the Planning domain; and use the scribe ACF for Turn Undead. Thanks for the help!

[Diarmuid]

Just out of curiosity, why is he getting three domains?

[TheLonelyScribe]

Cloistered Cleric, he gets knowledge as a bonus domain

[ericgrau]

...But the whole point of Eberron is that the gods are distant and may not actually exist.

An atheist works fine in Eberron.

Ohhh, I missed that. I like the made up logic domain, especially the domain power. I like discern lies / awaken, but I dunno about all the hold / dominate / etc. Might not be anything better tho.

[Leon]

For my Archivist 2.0 i had originally chosen the Rune Domain and Planning Domain before i had religion crudely thrust on me.

Me: do i have to chose a god for my cleric
DM: Yes
Me: do i have to choose a Greek god
DM: No
Me: I choose Thoth
DM: What!, no... what about the Norse gods...
Me: Grumble grumble why not Egyptian
DM: i dont like them

Much later...
Me: All praise Thoth for his Blessings
DM: ./sigh