[3.5e]So, Optimizing a 3rd Party Class...Challenging? Yes. Impossible? No!

[dsmiles]

Here's the deal:

We're playing Expedition to Castle Ravenloft this weekend, and since all roads lead to Ravenloft, my DM is allowing me to use the Iron Kingdoms sourcebook from Privateer Press. I'm playing a Gun Mage, and never having played one, I need options.

Gun Mage in a nutshell: Medium BAB, Good Reflex, CHA-based casting, 1 level behind a sorcerer's progression (which means that with a high Charisma, I'll have 3rd level spells at 7th level). Oh yeah, and GUNS! (Specifically pistols.)

Anyone game?

Basics: Level 7 Elven single-classed Gun Mage (preferably blasty, and yes, I am married to the concept of the single classed character), and assume standard WBL.
Available Books: PHB, Complete Arcane, Iron Kingdoms Character Guide, Heroes of Horror

GO!

[Leon]

Why do you need to optimize?
Just make a character and have some fun with it.

[Coidzor]

I approve of their use of British swearing in the first line of the class description, that's for sure.

Well, first things first. You're going to need a way to hurt undead, vampires, lycanthropes, incorporeal creatures, swarms, and probably plants too. And if you're really lucky, constructs and outsiders/elementals.

Fortunately you come out of the gates with a boom stick and your own version of arcane strike for bonus force damage out of class features, so it seems potential damage output is not something that'll need to be shored up out of the bag.

And it looks like you'll have 4 1st and 2nd level spells known and 2 3rd level spells known.

I can't think of anything to say other than to refer to sorcerer stratagems in regards to spell selection there and potentially to acquire know stones.

And you have some incentive to take touch spells due to your schmagic pistol...

[dsmiles]

And you have some incentive to take touch spells due to your schmagic pistol...

I do.

And you're right, I wasn't really looking for damage output, since (at level 5) pretty much any targeted spell becomes a viable option with the same range as my pistola. I need survivability. d6 HP, and proficient in light armor (arcane spell failure is a PITA, though), but with limited spell selection. Do I go full blaster, or do I hold back and buff myself for AC?

[Tavar]

Why do you need to optimize?
Just make a character and have some fun with it.

Isn't that module a very demanding and deadly one? So, optimization is as much a way to be able to enjoy the character as anything else.

[dsmiles]

Isn't that module a very demanding and deadly one?

Yes.

So, optimization is as much a way to be able to enjoy the character as anything else.

Yes. Hence my reply to Coidzor about survivability being my primary optimization focus here. Sure we get a backup character, but I really like my Iron Kingdoms Steampunkery, and have an overwhelming urge to make one character last the entire adventure.

[Leon]

Isn't that module a very demanding and deadly one? So, optimization is as much a way to be able to enjoy the character as anything else.

Silly me i forgot that you cant enjoy a PC if its not optimal.



I dont care about your optimal woes but i'll gives some advice for a good PC

Re: Gun Mage and Armour talk to your DM and see what they think, (i cant find my refence as im not logged in to the PP forums atm and dont even know if it transfered to the new version) but i recall something about the Arcane spell failure being a oversight and that they could cast in Light Armour with no problem. Most other Caster classes that can wear light armour can cast in it - Bard, Warmage, Dread Necro etc.

If stuff from IKCG is useable gear wise nab a Great Coat (Armoured's best but can make your DM growl...)

Pick up a Morningstar and 3 Colour Coded daggers (Silver, Cold Iron and Adamantine) and hope that you never have to use them

Want more Damage per shot?
Weapon Focus: Pistol, Prescise Shot and Sharpshooter. Put as much as you can into your DEX for DEX mod to damage with attacks from the focused weapon.

For Spells i'd lean more towards utility and defence with the Gun as your main Damage tool but with some rays for good measure.

Shame you dont have the NQs on the List of allowed books - the couple that focused on Gun mages had some useful things.

[Greenish]

The description lacks the stats of a pistol as a weapon.

Anyhow, the class seems like ranged duskblade with slightly better spell list (but less BAB, hd and spells per day). You'll want Precise Shot, but Rapid and Manyshot are pretty useless since you don't get full attack channel. Well, until you run out of spells, of course, which'll happen if you want to deal real damage. After that, you're just a poor man's archer.

[Edit]:

Silly me i forgot that you cant enjoy a PC if its not optimal.

He meant that you can't enjoy a dead PC, and you know it.

[Leon]

The description lacks the stats of a pistol as a weapon.

Anyhow, the class seems like ranged duskblade with slightly better spell list (but less BAB, hd and spells per day). You'll want Precise Shot, but Rapid and Manyshot are pretty useless since you don't get full attack channel. Well, until you run out of spells, of course, which'll happen if you want to deal real damage. After that, you're just a poor man's archer.

Standard Military Pistol is 2d6, 19-20 x3 80ft

[Edit]:He meant that you can't enjoy a dead PC, and you know it.

A PC doesnt need to be Optimal to stay alive, hard module or not.

[Greenish]

Standard Military Pistol is 2d6, 19-20 x3 80ft

Free action loading?

A PC doesnt need to be Optimal to stay alive, hard module or not.

Optimization means making a good character for purpose X (or just in general). That's what you suggested, too.

There's no "one true way" of making a character "Optimal" like you seem to suggest.

[Tavar]

A PC doesnt need to be Optimal to stay alive, hard module or not.

But in a hard module, being optimized makes it less of "is the DM going to fudge the dice" and more of "this guy's living on his own merits".

[dsmiles]

Free action loading?

Standard action

And survival is key, here. My damage output seems like it will be good enough; my damage intake ability, however, is questionable. Living on my own merits is definitely the endstate of this optimization thread.

As far as the NQ's not being on the list, it's because none of us owns them. I have the Character Guide, Lock & Load, and the Monsternomicon (nom nom nom ).

Thanks, so far, guys.

EDIT: I've been looking at Rapid Reload. My DM will probably allow that to apply to firearms. But I'll definitely be firing into melee (probably a lot), so Point Blank and Precise Shot are probably a must.

[Greenish]

Standard action

Does Rapid Reload work on that? Because I have hard time seeing how you plan to have relevant damage output with a single hit every other round. (Or do you plan having several pistols?)

[dsmiles]

Does Rapid Reload work on that? Because I have hard time seeing how you plan to have relevant damage output with a single hit every other round. (Or do you plan having several pistols?)

See my edit above. And I plan on packin' a whole lotta heat! At least 3 or 4 extras, but I can only have 1 bonded magelock.

[Greenish]

but I can only have 1 bonded magelock.

That's not what the class you linked to says.

[dsmiles]

That's not what the class you linked to says.

HOLY CRAP, BATMAN!!!!!

I can't believe I missed that!
You have just saved the day, Greenish. Damage output, SOLVED!

Now, to survive Castle Ravenloft.

[Keld Denar]

Castle Ravenloft has a lot of things that ambush you from odd angles, so the standard meatshield-in-front tactic doesn't go over well. Make sure you have a few get-a-way cards like Anklets of Translocation or Chronocharms of the Horizon Walker. Also, boost your saves as much as you can afford with a +resistance cloak/vest. Next, protect yourself from negative energy. +1 Soulfire armor costs 25,000g+base, which might be a bit steep. If so, +1 Death Ward armor protects you from 1 effect per day for 4,000g+base. Lastly, you'll want something to guard your head. Armor Crystal of Mind Shielding gives +1/+3/+5 bonus on will saves vs mind affecting stuff, otherwise you could take a feat like Shape Soulmeld: Planar Ward or Willing Deformity(Madness) or the other feat that Person_Man always links that allows you to redirect mind affecting crap. That should cover most of your bases.

[dsmiles]

Castle Ravenloft has a lot of things that ambush you from odd angles, so the standard meatshield-in-front tactic doesn't go over well. Make sure you have a few get-a-way cards like Anklets of Translocation or Chronocharms of the Horizon Walker. Also, boost your saves as much as you can afford with a +resistance cloak/vest. Next, protect yourself from negative energy. +1 Soulfire armor costs 25,000g+base, which might be a bit steep. If so, +1 Death Ward armor protects you from 1 effect per day for 4,000g+base. Lastly, you'll want something to guard your head. Armor Crystal of Mind Shielding gives +1/+3/+5 bonus on will saves vs mind affecting stuff, otherwise you could take a feat like Shape Soulmeld: Planar Ward or Willing Deformity(Madness) or the other feat that Person_Man always links that allows you to redirect mind affecting crap. That should cover most of your bases.

Sound advice, however...

Available Books: PHB, Complete Arcane, Iron Kingdoms Character Guide, Heroes of Horror

I think I can only get the resistance cloak/vest and the Death Ward armor off your list. And don't you have to be evil to get willing deformity?
Unless some of that other stuff is from HoH or CA. I haven't completely read HoH yet, and my memories of CA are a little fuzzy.

[Keld Denar]

Gah, thats what I get for skimming. Man, you really need access to the MIC...blargoblargoblarg...

[dsmiles]

I agree, but none of us owns it, so no one gets to use it.

[dsmiles]

Bump for T-9h 20m.

Bueller?
Bueller?

Anyone?

[Leon]

If your DM lets have more than one Magelock to bond with is a another matter.

[Coidzor]

What does Combat Loading do? It seems like something that would reduce the loading time problem. What are you currently planning on taking for your bonus feat?

If your DM lets have more than one Magelock to bond with is a another matter.

Why would that be an issue though?

[Leon]

Beacuse Magelocks are not meant to be dime a dozen.
They are made specially to wistand the arcane energies and common pistols are not.

[Coidzor]

Beacuse Magelocks are not meant to be dime a dozen.
They are made specially to wistand the arcane energies and common pistols are not.

Well, he ostensibly has full WBL to work with here, so I'm still not following.

I would say to focus more on buffing with one or two more blasty spells.

I'd recommend blur and fly as two of your spells known. Summon Swarm might be useful against the living opponents you run into (specifically I don't think lycanthropes can stop the wounding effect of bat swarms even by changing form either that or by nauseating them into being unable to act while they're peppered with ranged attacks), but I can't recall if there's enough encounters of that sort to merit it as a permanent spell choice as opposed to maybe a wand.

Take shocking grasp as your touch spell to do at range of choice...although, chill touch lets you shoot out 7 ranged touches (1 touch per level, so...) from your magelock pistol that each require a save from living things or they take a strength damage or a save from undead or they become panicked and have to drop their stuff and flee and cower if they can't flee... not very good damage against the living and none versus undead, but, hey, undead that fail their save are out of the fight for a minimum of 2 roundsCorrection, 8 rounds of panick and one casting would allow you to split them up into more managed chunks for your melee to practically dispose of at their leisure. Particularly good targets for the panicked effect would be ability damage/drainers like vampires and wights, bruisers, and spell-slingers...

Glitterdust is a good general purpose, no you don't get to be invisible and haha you're blind spell that apparently works against undead as well. Spiderclimb too is a spell that'll get you out of melee reach of most of the nasty things, especially since trees are so often around given the countryside.

huh. Looks like you don't get any touch or ray spells at 3rd level... Though it does give you some AoE capabilities.

I'm assuming flaws aren't allowed. So you've got 3 regular feats and a bonus feat with which to work your mojo...

You'll want point blank shot for a +1 to hit and damage and as a prereq for Precise Shot so you can hit things your melee types are dealing with.

So that's two there, and on the bonus feat list it looks like Weapon Focus Pistols is the best one unless the craft: small arms check to reload in combat is high enough you need the bonus.

Not sure what I'd say for the 6th level feat though...

What are the rest of the party going to be?

[Attilargh]

See my edit above. And I plan on packin' a whole lotta heat! At least 3 or 4 extras, but I can only have 1 bonded magelock.

Do consider investing in a bunch of cheap wands or save boosters or something instead.

I can't remember the prices for magelock military pistols and their ammunition offhand, but I'm willing to bet you're better off investing at least some of that insane pile of gold in more magic instead of more gun. Especially if you can squeeze in Rapid Reload: Firing one gun every round is better than firing two every other, because of two-weapon penalties.

Packing a spare or two might be sound in some cases (full-attacking with Quick Draw? I dunno), but four is simply overkill. I can't see any point in spending your monies there.

[dsmiles]

What does Combat Loading do? It seems like something that would reduce the loading time problem. What are you currently planning on taking for your bonus feat?

Bonus to Concentration for loading during combat.

I'd recommend blur and fly as two of your spells known. Summon Swarm might be useful against the living opponents you run into (specifically I don't think lycanthropes can stop the wounding effect of bat swarms even by changing form either that or by nauseating them into being unable to act while they're peppered with ranged attacks), but I can't recall if there's enough encounters of that sort to merit it as a permanent spell choice as opposed to maybe a wand.

Take shocking grasp as your touch spell to do at range of choice...although, chill touch lets you shoot out 7 ranged touches (1 touch per level, so...) from your magelock pistol that each require a save from living things or they take a strength damage or a save from undead or they become panicked and have to drop their stuff and flee and cower if they can't flee... not very good damage against the living and none versus undead, but, hey, undead that fail their save are out of the fight for a minimum of 2 rounds and one casting would allow you to split them up into more managed chunks for your melee. Particularly good targets for the panicked effect would be ability damage/drainers like vampires and wights, bruisers, and spell-slingers...

Glitterdust is a good general purpose, no you don't get to be invisible and haha you're blind spell that apparently works against undead as well. Spiderclimb too is a spell that'll get you out of melee reach of most of the nasty things, especially since trees are so often around given the countryside.

huh. Looks like you don't get any touch or ray spells at 3rd level... Though it does give you some AoE capabilities.

I'm assuming flaws aren't allowed. So you've got 3 regular feats and a bonus feat with which to work your mojo...

You'll want point blank shot for a +1 to hit and damage and as a prereq for Precise Shot so you can hit things your melee types are dealing with.

So that's two there, and on the bonus feat list it looks like Weapon Focus Pistols is the best one unless the craft: small arms check to reload in combat is high enough you need the bonus.

Not sure what I'd say for the 6th level feat though...

What are the rest of the party going to be?

Sounds good, but, yeah, no flaws.
Military Pistol DC is only like 8 or 10 or some silly low number.
Point Blank and Precise Shot are almost mandatory. One of the characters is probably going to be a melee guy, and the DMs wife usually plays a druid or ranger on top of that. I'm probably going to pass on AoE, can't channel it through the pistola. Only ray, ranged touch, and touch. Shocking grasp, chill touch, glitterdust, and summon swarm seem sound choices. How good, exactly, is vampiric touch? Will it work against undead-ish things? My other 3rd level choices are wavering between blink, displacement, haste and slow.

Do consider investing in a bunch of cheap wands or save boosters or something instead.

I can't remember the prices for magelock military pistols and their ammunition offhand, but I'm willing to bet you're better off investing at least some of that insane pile of gold in more magic instead of more gun. Especially if you can squeeze in Rapid Reload: Firing one gun every round is better than firing two every other, because of two-weapon penalties.

Packing a spare or two might be sound in some cases (full-attacking with Quick Draw? I dunno), but four is simply overkill. I can't see any point in spending your monies there.

+1,500 gp for a quenched serricsteel magelock. +300 gp because it has to be masterwork. Zoinks! Forget Mechanickal or Arcanickal! 2 magelocks and 2 or 3 expendables. Definitely going for a vest of resistance, and possibly a +1 or +2 reinforced greatcoat. (+1 AC, DR 3/bludgeoning or slashing). Ammo's not too bad. Runecast ammo for a military pistol will run me 9-11 gp/shot (8-10gp/shot +1gp/shot for runecast). I'm thinking about going with a Clockwerk Arms Pepperbox. Less range, more shots before reload, 50gp less than a millitary pistol. And of course I'm going to scope any pistol I get (+75gp, reduces range increment penalty to -1). Although 80ft with the military pistol is pretty respectable, as is.

[Leon]

What about a Multibarrel Military Pistol over a Clockwerk Arms Pepperbox
(Balanced Multibarrel is in Liber Mechanica but is just a Expansion of the Double Barrel rules given in IKCG - +30% weight and +75% of base cost for each barrel added)
Gives you better range and hitting power than the Pepperbox

And a have a seperate pistol that is well maintained with a suppy of Incendiary rounds for when things need to burn

[true_shinken]

Seeing the Gunmage again, it sucks a lot less than I remembered. Maybe there were translations mistakes in the portuguese version, but I thought they needed to create runes on their bullets for all their spells.
I find it weird that gunmages can cast spells without their guns, though.

[dsmiles]

What about a Multibarrel Military Pistol over a Clockwerk Arms Pepperbox
(Balanced Multibarrel is in Liber Mechanica but is just a Expansion of the Double Barrel rules given in IKCG - +30% weight and +75% of base cost for each barrel added)
Gives you better range and hitting power than the Pepperbox

And a have a seperate pistol that is well maintained with a suppy of Incendiary rounds for when things need to burn

Once again, how did I friggin' miss that? Is that under the equipment section?
...and: Incendiary = Ouch. I was already debating that in my head, but wasn't sure whether I wanted to go that way or not. I probably will, even if it's only because everything is better with fire.