Optimizing non-lethal combat - can it be done? [3.5]

[Akal Saris]

So I was looking through my books, and there are a lot of scattered magic items, PRCs, spells, and whatnot that deal subdual damage. But I almost never see it used in builds! Now, often when WOTC thinks that something sucks badly, they try to throw in a carrot to make people interested. So there must be some items or spells or PRCs that benefit from subdual damage.

So here's my question - what are some solid builds that people can think up (or already know of!) that use non-lethal damage? I don't have any to start, but here are some random ideas:

-Warblade with the Iron Heart touch attacks ability
-There must be some trick you can pull off with binders
-Anything worthwhile in BoED? Apostle of Peace really has nothing to do with subdual damage it seems

[Greenish]

Tashalatora. Unarmed Strikes can deal non-lethal damage from the get go, tashalatora can gets that high. Also grapples anything.

[Tavar]

Well, casters can use the Non-lethal substitution feat(+1 metamagic) to make their spells deal non-lethal damage. Combine that with the Cindy build, and you should be good.

[Greenish]

Well, casters can use the Non-lethal substitution feat to make their spells deal non-lethal damage. Combine that with the Cindy build, and you should be good.

Rocks fall, everyone… faints.

[SurlySeraph]

Well, casters can use the Non-lethal substitution feat(+1 metamagic) to make their spells deal non-lethal damage. Combine that with the Cindy build, and you should be good.

...
Must resist the urge to stat up Nanoha.

[Awnetu]

You can do alot simply by using a mercyful weapon.

[Thurbane]

How about a Duskblade with a Merciful weapon, channeling spells with the Non Lethal Substitution metgamagic feat? Throw in some Leap Attack and Shock Trooper, maybe some tripping...

[Greenish]

How about a Duskblade with a Merciful weapon, channeling spells with the Non Lethal Substitution metgamagic feat?

Can you channel spells with casting time longer than standard action?

[Tavar]

So....
Himura Kenshin, then?

[Thurbane]

Can you channel spells with casting time longer than standard action?

Might need the Rapid Metamagic feat, then...

[PopcornMage]

Subdual damage is just a way to compensate for the abstract combat system and the dramatic value of not killing everybody all the time.

It's not that WoTC thinks it sucks badly, it's just that it's an awkward solution to the problem.

[SilentNight]

So....
Himura Kenshin, then?

This is the next character I'm playing.

[Coidzor]

Well, considering things that are immune to non-lethal are either also immune to ability damage or not immune to ability damage...

Getting some reliable method to deal Dex, Wisdom, or Charisma Damage is probably one of the best ways to go.

[BenInHB]

The Justicar PrC on pg48 of the Complete Warrior is perfect for that.

Any attack can be made as non-lethal without the normal -4 penalty, they get a non-lethal sneak attack, and their Hogtie and Improved Hogtie abilities are sick.

They are really good when you stack their Hogtie ability with a strong grapple build. This fits with the Tashalatora suggestion that others have thrown up before me. A Monk2/PsyWar6/Justicar8 then back to PsyWar the rest of the way with powers like Expansion, Grip of Iron, Metaphysical Weapon, Hustle, Animal Affinity (for +STR) and Strength of my Enemies, wielding a Mancatcher (a Grappling Polearm with Reach from pg157 of CWar) and with Quick Draw and some MW Adamantine Manacles and maybe so Bola's for ranged Grapple.

Feats:
1st level: Monastic Training
Monk 1: Stunning Fist
Monk 2: Combat Reflexes
3rd level: Tashalatora
PsyWar1: EWP Mancatcher
PsyWar2: Quick Draw
6th level: Practiced Manifester
PsyWar4: Over Channel
PsyWar6: Talented
9th level: Link Power
Justicar2: Improved Grapple
Justicar3: EWP Manacles
12th level: Psionic Meditation
15th level: ??

[gorfnab]

Weapons: Sap, Truncheon, Mancatcher, Whip, Bolas, Entangling Pole, Grasping Pole, Lasso, Net

Shadowcaster - Arrow of Dusk, Life Fades, Life Fades Greater

Whisper Gnome Rogue 1/ Shadowcaster 1
Feats: Magic in the Blood, Silencing Strike, Craven (or Darkstalker), 2 flaws.
Mysteries: Arrow of Dusk, Sight Obscured, Mystic Reflections (or more Arrow of Dusk), Life Fades
Tactics: Arrow of Dusk + Sneak Attack + Silencing Strike = Unconscious enemy who was not able to scream for help, also works great on casters since not many low level casters have the slots or build necessary to use Silent Spell on all of their spells. Also your Hide check is insane 5 ranks + 4 size + 4 racial + 5 Sight Obscured + Dex.

[BenInHB]

Help me roughly figure this out for the above build

I'll use level 16 since that is when Improved Hog-tie comes into play and a starting STR of 18 and all attribute increases to STR

The Grapple check with self buffs but without stat boosting items would be...

BaB +STR +Size +Feats +Weapon Enhancement (correct??)

14 + 10 + 8 + 4 + 3 = 39


What items should i include to boost STR or specifically Grapple Checks??

[Milskidasith]

Make a really optimal melee build.

Suck up the -4 to hit.

Profit!

[Temotei]

Make a really optimal melee build.

Suck up the -4 to hit.

Profit!

I like this.

[Tvtyrant]

Sneak attack sap or blunt arrows. Optimized.

[Randel]

Make an optimal melee build that uses maces.

Use a Rod of Withering

Find a way to get enemies to fail their fort saves

???

Profit!


Though in the Book of Exalted Deeds there is the Nonlethal Substitution metamagic feat that converts one chosen type of energy damage into nonlethal damage without raising the spell level. Get another metamagic feat that converts other energy types into your chosen type and you can turn all your damaging energy spells into nonlethal damage.

Them pull off some kind of Locate City Bomb thing and start knocking people out.


Also, there is the spell Yoke of Mercy in Exalted Deeds that forces other creatures to fight in a merciful manner for 1 round per caster level. Its a 2nd level wizard spell and a will save negates but its interesting.


Maybe find a cheap way to do intelligence damage to your enemies and just hit them until they become drooling vegetables... or mind control them somehow.

[Coidzor]

Flash-frost + snowcasting + heighten spell + nonlethal substitution (cold->nonlethal). Only prerequisites are another metamagic feat for nonlethal substitution and Con 13 for snowcasting.

As a 3rd level spell do 4 cold->nonlethal damage per casting, so fire off a couple of them and you've knocked out the whole city below X level. One of them will knock out any 1st level commoner with 10 CON or less.

Let's say, Fifth level human wizard with 16 INT and 13 CON. Can knock out most of a city 2x a day for 2 hours (assuming 2 HP, 10 CON commoners as the norm) with an additional hour of staggered or nova and knock 'em out for 6 hours and a round with an additional hour of being staggered. Also 3 second level spells that'd do 2 nonlethal damage each.

So you can knock out a lot of 1st-2nd level NPCs and then come in and start coup de graceing them, but that's probably not going to net any experience. Would be an alright method by which to prevent the formation of mobs though. Not sure if it would effect the individual members of a mob/swarm though... I mean, you'd think it would since it effects all creatures within its radius...

[Zaq]

I want to see a 1d2 crusader with a Small whip (or Small unarmed strike, I guess). Infinite nonlethal damage. Their victims would be at full HP and under no magical effects, but they'd sleep forever. They'd leave a trail of Sleeping Beauties and baffled healers in their wake.

Interestingly, a 0th level spell (Dawn) could wake them up, until they got a single scratch. Might make for an interesting fight if you had hints and could prepare.

[Il_Vec]

I want to see a 1d2 crusader with a Small whip (or Small unarmed strike, I guess). Infinite nonlethal damage. Their victims would be at full HP and under no magical effects, but they'd sleep forever. They'd leave a trail of Sleeping Beauties and baffled healers in their wake.

Interestingly, a 0th level spell (Dawn) could wake them up, until they got a single scratch. Might make for an interesting fight if you had hints and could prepare.

Not quite infinite, as when you receive enough nonlethal damage to surpass your current hit points you start taking normal hitpoint damage.

[Psyren]

Since you're not killing anything anyway you may as well pick up Vow of Nonviolence, ramping up the save DCs of all your spells and special attacks by +4 untyped.

[panaikhan]

Try a Warforged, with a Vicious Merciful weapon.
Win-Win

[Tengu_temp]

Make a really optimal melee build.

Suck up the -4 to hit.

Profit!

There is a feat that lets you non-lethally attack with any weapons for no penalty. It's from BoED, but it's not an Exalted feat and everyone can take it.

[Tavar]

Make an optimal melee build that uses maces.

Use a Rod of Withering

Find a way to get enemies to fail their fort saves

Or just use the lighting maces strategy. Not quite as effective since, but still, with the right feats you'll be making enough attacks that the'll fail some saves...

Not quite infinite, as when you receive enough nonlethal damage to surpass your current hit points you start taking normal hitpoint damage.

Source? From the SRD:

Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The Justicar PrC on pg48 of the Complete Warrior is perfect for that.

Any attack can be made as non-lethal without the normal -4 penalty, they get a non-lethal sneak attack, and their Hogtie and Improved Hogtie abilities are sick.

They are really good when you stack their Hogtie ability with a strong grapple build. This fits with the Tashalatora suggestion that others have thrown up before me. A Monk2/PsyWar6/Justicar8 then back to PsyWar the rest of the way with powers like Expansion, Grip of Iron, Metaphysical Weapon, Hustle, Animal Affinity (for +STR) and Strength of my Enemies, wielding a Mancatcher (a Grappling Polearm with Reach from pg157 of CWar) and with Quick Draw and some MW Adamantine Manacles and maybe so Bola's for ranged Grapple.

Feats:
1st level: Monastic Training
Monk 1: Stunning Fist
Monk 2: Combat Reflexes
3rd level: Tashalatora
PsyWar1: EWP Mancatcher
PsyWar2: Quick Draw
6th level: Practiced Manifester
PsyWar4: Over Channel
PsyWar6: Talented
9th level: Link Power
Justicar2: Improved Grapple
Justicar3: EWP Manacles
12th level: Psionic Meditation
15th level: ??

I think a Tashalastora based of Ardent would be better, as you can loose more Ardent levels and still get higher level powers, you might need a careful Mantle Selection.

[Quietus]

There is a feat that lets you non-lethally attack with any weapons for no penalty. It's from BoED, but it's not an Exalted feat and everyone can take it.

Easier to stick Merciful on your weapon, and use your feat for something interesting. This makes any optimized weapon-based strategy work for subdual, and adds a d6 of damage, same cost as sticking flaming/frost/shock on your weapon too. And as a nice bonus, you can "deactivate" the Merciful enchantment when you fight things immune to nonlethal.

[prufock]

At 2nd level, the Bloodhound gets the ability to do nonlethal without the -4 penalty. However, I don't think I've ever seen the Bloodhound used in an optimized build, I'm just throwing it in here in the interest of completion. Its abilities are... of varying and questionable utility. It's a situationally-dependent class. There are better and easier ways to get rid of that penalty.