Bear Warrior Help

[mickeymacattack]

I found this nice little guide http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t= and I was interested in making a bear warrior, aside from the flavor of being a bear I would think the havoc I could raise would be pretty good too.

However from what I read in CW the natural attacks of the bear form start at level 1 with 1d4 (claws) then 1d6 (claws) and 1d8 (bite) at level 5 and max out at level 10 with 2d4 (claws) and 2d6 (bite). Even if I wanted to invest 10 levels into the class which I would rather not the damage seems pitiful compared to other melee classes.

Now I have seen several builds combining this with monk or fist of the forest, but from what I have been told unarmed damage doesn't stack with natural attacks so any of the improved unarmed damage abilities do absolutely nothing for this class.

Does anyone have any suggestions or is the bear warrior more bark than bite?

[herrhauptmann]

I'd say Bearington McBearman (or whatever) is more awesome than bark or bite. I was also sure that half the power of the class came from it's grappling abilities. Of course, I could be wrong.

[mickeymacattack]

Well I know it gets bonuses to grappling, but I was thinking more of making a bear that just straight up mauls people.

I know there is the improved natural weapons feat, but aside from that what would be the point of anyone creating a character based around natural weapons if the damage difference is going to be that much?

[Greenish]

Now I have seen several builds combining this with monk or fist of the forest, but from what I have been told unarmed damage doesn't stack with natural attacks so any of the improved unarmed damage abilities do absolutely nothing for this class.

There is a school of thought that holds it that every creature can use unarmed strikes. Should this hold true with your DM, you could make a normal full attack sequence with your unarmed strike, then use all natural weapons as secondaries.

[mickeymacattack]

Honestly thats what I think too, since I really would say that an unarmed attack is simply an attack made without a manufactured weapon but I can understand mechanics wise why they are kept separate.

As for the damage goes, assuming I take warshaper 2/bear warrior 5 I can see it coming out as such but please correct me if my math is off as I dont know if natural weapons follow the same damage chart as normal weapons.

black bear form gives me
- 1d4 claws
- 1d6 bite

brown bear form increases
- 1d6 claws
- 1d8 bite

warshaper morphic weapons increases
- 1d8 claws
- 2d6 bite

improved natural weapon feat increases
- 2d6 claws
- 3d6 bite

Is that correct or did I screw up the conversion?

I am really not looking for anything fancy with this build, just to be a big old bear that mauls everything.

[Keld Denar]

Brown Bear makes you large, so there should be another size increase in there, IIRC.

[mickeymacattack]

I believe that's why the damage goes from 1d4 to 1d6 for claws and 1d6 to 1d8 for bite. If you go even further and take 10 levels of BW and get the dire bear form I think you become huge, although I would have to read it.

I noticed a lot of builds incorporate a level of monk into them, is this suppose to allow the use of unarmed attacks while in bear form since the monks fist technically count as both or what?

[Coidzor]

I noticed a lot of builds incorporate a level of monk into them, is this suppose to allow the use of unarmed attacks while in bear form since the monks fist technically count as both or what?

Monk's Unarmed Strike, not monk's fist.

So they can use unarmed strike while in bear form. So they get lots of attacks.

[dgnslyr]

Better yet, take levels in Fist of the Forest for crazy fast US progression (yes!) and Con to AC (YES!!). The two classes also seem to work well together, fluff wise. Both are very awesome. Now go, and be a kung-fu bear!

[mickeymacattack]

And just to be clear it is possible to be a barbarian and a monk?

I thought this went against the rules since one has to be lawful and the other cannot be lawful?

Also how would the attacks work in that situation with unarmed strike, would you get the first attack of an unarmed strike followed by the natural weapons (claws and bite)?

[Coidzor]

Chaos monk variant, yeah, or go monk and become chaotic and become barbarian, though really, that's why the Fist of the Forest levels are extra nice as mentioned.

You'd get all the iterative attacks of the unarmed strike.

Then you'd get all the attacks of the natural weapons only they'd all count as secondary natural weapons. So they'd be attacking at your highest attack bonus - 5 unless you have the multi-attack feat in which case they'd be attacking at your highest attack bonus - 2.

So if you have 2 claws, a bite, and a BAB of 11 and a strength of 18, you get UAS+15/UAS+10/UAS+5/Claw+10/Claw+10/Bite+10

[mickeymacattack]

Wow that actually works out quite well.

What is this chaotic monk variant you speak of? o_O

[Coidzor]

It's a Dragon Magazine class variant. Can't remember the particular issue though, sorry.

It's basically chaotic aligned and has several abilities refluffed to go along with chaos and instead of normal flurry it's a die roll to determine how many extra attacks are granted.

[Sploosh]

Not to derail, but wasn't there a wizard article saying that you lose the natural attacks that would be used for a weapon if you go with unarmed attacks normally? It said you could use unarmed and give up the claws in this situation or you could count the unarmed as a dual wield and take the penalties for twf.

I could be crazy and would be relieved to know if I am.

[Coidzor]

There was a rules of the game or FAQ ruling that detailed how Unarmed strikes can be dual-wielded... Can't remember which offhand.

Rules of the Game Unarmed Attacks Article 1. There's something like 3 articles might be in those.

<_< >_>

[mickeymacattack]

That was my understand that the unarmed based counted as the primary and the natural attacks as the secondary (penalties included)

Although according to article if you choose to do so you are unable to use whatever limb you used for the unarmed strike as a natural weapon. I.E. I could use my "bear claw" to unarmed strike but then would not be able to use it as a natural weapon as well.

The only way you get both (according to the article) is to treat the unarmed strike as an offhand attack, which I am assuming this is where TWF comes into play, in this instance you get to attack with everything but at a -4 penalty to it all.

Am I right so far or did I screw something up?

[Cieyrin]

Two things of note, at least race-wise, that may make your Bear Warrior better.

If you're set on going monk into Bear Warrior and not really seeing the heavy alignment shift, you could be a Half-Orc and go Half-Orc Paragon and get Rage that way without an alignment shift.

On the other hand, if it's the natural attack damage worrying you, you could also go Goliath and take Powerful Wild Shape, which'd up your damage across the board one size category. Warshaper's text would seem to indicate that Bear Warrior can benefit from Wild Shape feats, so that's another thing to consider.

[mickeymacattack]

Does this even stack though? Throughout bear warrior each additional form increases in size, black is considered medium, brown is large and dire becomes huge (at least I think this is correct)

Also what exactly do you give up for powerful wild shape? Just powerful build?

[Cieyrin]

Does this even stack though? Throughout bear warrior each additional form increases in size, black is considered medium, brown is large and dire becomes huge (at least I think this is correct)

Also what exactly do you give up for powerful wild shape? Just powerful build?

Powerful Wild Shape is a feat, as I linked, and it explicitly gives you Powerful Build in your alternate form, as well as gives you an effective size increase on your natural weapons above what your form has, so Black Bear form would effectively have Large natural weapons and Brown and Dire Bears (Dire Bears are Large) would have Huge natural weapons, which can then be further buffed by Warshaper into Huge or Gargatuan, respectively.

[Urpriest]

In any case without stacking size increases (another to consider is Improved Natural Attack) you'll be doing most of your damage from Strength and Power Attack anyway, the same as most other melee characters.

[Frosty]

After some errata, I think Powerful Wild Shape is now a useless feat as you already retain Powerful Build by default

[Mystic Muse]

After some errata, I think Powerful Wild Shape is now a useless feat as you already retain Powerful Build by default

However, Powerful build does not increase the damage dice of natural weapons. So, it's not completely useless.

At least, that's what everybody I know tells me.

[Frosty]

You can wield weapons of one size larger. The DM may say that your claws grew larger given how much larger you are than normal.

[Myth]

The rules for stacking natural and unarmed strike are in the 3.5 faq on the WOTC site.

[Gaiyamato]

Try this out:
Bear-bear-bear-bear

Anthropormophic Bear - Were Bear - Barbarian (Bear Totem) - Bear Warrior


muahahaha!

[Androgeus]

Try this out:
Bear-bear-bear-bear

Anthropormophic Bear - Were Bear - Barbarian (Bear Totem) - Bear Warrior


muahahaha!

I'm sorry but that build is so grizzly, It's unbearable.
However, some people may like it, options can be polar opposites.
I really have to stop panda-ering to these bear puns, they can be a bit dire.

[jiriku]

The usual build is barbarian/fist of the forest/bear warrior. IMO you don't really need to dip monk. You can up your base damage dice with Improved Natural Attack or something, but really, who cares? Bear warriors deal damage through massive strength bonuses and massive attacks per round, not through large damage dice.

As a FoF/BW, you are a kung-fu panda. Use elbow smashes, shoulder slams, knees to the groin, kicks to the face, flying tackles, or whatever other methods you want to deliver your unarmed strikes, just don't use your claws or teeth. THEN, use your natural attacks as secondary weapons. So, for example, at BAB +11, your attack will be UAS+11/UAS+6/UAS+1/claw+6/claw+6/bite+6. Add pounce, Multiattack, haste, and TWF to taste.

[Mongoose87]

Not to derail, but wasn't there a wizard article saying that you lose the natural attacks that would be used for a weapon if you go with unarmed attacks normally? It said you could use unarmed and give up the claws in this situation or you could count the unarmed as a dual wield and take the penalties for twf.

I could be crazy and would be relieved to know if I am.

The nice thing about Unarmed Strikes is that they don't specify why part of your body you make them with. In this case, it's not with you're claws, so you get all your natural attacks.

[Mystic Muse]

You can wield weapons of one size larger. The DM may say that your claws grew larger given how much larger you are than normal.

However, per RAW, that isn't how it works. At least AFAIK.

[mickeymacattack]

I know I don't technically have to take a level of monk, but going from 1d3 to 1d6 unarmed strike damage just seems worth the extra level.

Doing a little reading, I could take a level of monk and then go barbarian (it just says monks who become unlawful cannot train in monk again but retain all of their abilities). So basically I was thinking something along the lines of my dwarf being adopted by a monastery after being found in the wild at a young age, then basically leaving it (or kicked out) after he couldn't follow directions or sit still long enough to become a proper monk XD

Either way I like the idea of kung-fu smokey. XD