3.5 What is better at low levels a Kobold or a Poison Dusk Lizardfolk?

[Dusk Eclipse]

The title explains itself really, I just want to know the playground's opinion on this two races.

Lets assume we are using Kobolds with RoTD web enchancment (IE Natural attack routine of bite/claw/claw, slight build.)

And well normal PD lizardfolk as in MM III.

For a melee class like a swordsage?

A caster class?

A skill monkey class?

[Urpriest]

Probably still kobold. Level adjustment is unpleasant at low levels, and Poison Dusk Lizardfolk, while nice, doesn't give enough to make it worthwhile compared to the fully buffed RotD kobold.

[The Rabbler]

Dragonwrought. That is all.

[Dusk Eclipse]

What is the exact benefit of Dragonwrought at low levels? sure I know the higher level tricks (+3 to all mental stats, access to epic feats before epic levels, all the fun of rapidstrike and improved rapidstrike, Alter self shenanigans, etc) nut I don't really see the uses at low levels IE: 1 to 5.

Honest question.

[BeholderSlayer]

What is the exact benefit of Dragonwrought at low levels? sure I know the higher level tricks (+3 to all mental stats, access to epic feats before epic levels, all the fun of rapidstrike and improved rapidstrike, Alter self shenanigans, etc) nut I don't really see the uses at low levels IE: 1 to 5.

Honest question.

There isn't any reason you can't be venerable at level 1.

[Urpriest]

+3 to all mental stats is a low-level trick, as are the cheesier Loredrake et. al. And Alter Self shenanigans come online at level 3.

[Dusk Eclipse]

My DM has forbade being venerable at level 1, he says it doesn't makes sense, and I agree with him to a degree; but that isn't the point of this.

As for Alter Self...I know remember one can technically get Alter self shenanigans at level 1 if we use flaws (coughprecociousaprenticecough)

Well, it seems kobolds are stronger who could have guessed?
The only problem I see is that Desert Kobolds (the best subrace IMO) get a Wis penalty and I was thinking on going melee route with swordsage.

[Urpriest]

There isn't any reason you can't be venerable at level 1.

Not to sidetrack, but

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I'm not aware of any rules text allowing characters to start at middle age or older age categories. Much like Spellhoarding and Loredrake, these are templates/variants with no listed LA, and as such can only be bestowed by the DM. You can start young and get older, but you can't start old any more than you can start as a Proxy.

Just my odd (but as far as I can see, utterly justified) interpretation.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Personally I believe this would fall into the "if it is not explicity forbidden in the rules, it is allowed" way of thinking, I know that following this as a "rule" of sorts would open a can of worms; but I think it is somewhat justificable to let you begin as an older character.

[Psyren]

Not to sidetrack, but

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I'm not aware of any rules text allowing characters to start at middle age or older age categories. Much like Spellhoarding and Loredrake, these are templates/variants with no listed LA, and as such can only be bestowed by the DM. You can start young and get older, but you can't start old any more than you can start as a Proxy.

Just my odd (but as far as I can see, utterly justified) interpretation.

Start young, adventure for awhile and age, get level drained then.

[Urpriest]

Start young, adventure for awhile and age, get level drained then.

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Nope. You start young at character creation, not at level one. There's no age-by-level table.

[Zaydos]

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Nope. You start young at character creation, not at level one. There's no age-by-level table.

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Supporting this is the 3.0 Character Generator demo which wouldn't let you start middle-aged or older. Note though it also gave half-elves a +1 Dex, -1 Con so... not the best character generator... and it came with my edition of the PHB.

[Dusk Eclipse]

People, people, I know this is interesting an all, but can we please return to the topic at hand?

Ok for a swordsage, what would be the best kobold subrace?

[Psyren]

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Nope. You start young at character creation, not at level one. There's no age-by-level table.

So what? BeholderSlayer said "venerable at level 1" not "venerable at character creation."

@ Dusk: Jungle kobolds are good; better to lose Int than Con or Wis.

[Urpriest]

So what? BeholderSlayer said "venerable at level 1" not "venerable at character creation."

@ Dusk: Jungle kobolds are good; better to lose Int than Con or Wis.

Deleveling isn't all that useful if you do it after character creation, but I suppose that is technically true.

And yeah, go with Jungle kobolds. Odd that desert kobolds have a Wis penalty, you'd think Wisdom would be a very deserty thing to have.

[Dusk Eclipse]

HmmmI forgot kobold's got a -4 to strength, I though it was just a -2 (though but workable).

Oh well I think I'll go Swordsage 18/Bloodclaw Master 2 (not in that order) focusing on shadow hand, tiger claw and diamond mind.

One idea that just came up was a feal desert kobold, which gives me... a +2 con and -4 int midiifer, but increases my natural armor extremely high, gives me better natural attacks, gives me scent (which saves me a stance on Hunter Sense, Scent has saved my characters live more than once).

hmm tempting

[Psyren]

Deleveling isn't all that useful if you do it after character creation, but I suppose that is technically true.

Write it into your backstory.

"Bloody yet triumphant, Grubblesnout the kobold Blademaster sheathed his kukris and turned away from the fallen corpse of the necromancer. Sadly, he failed to notice the evil cleric's newly-freed wight minions lurking in the shadowy corner of the ritual chamber..."

Now you're on a quest to recover your lost blade techniques, so you can spend a well-earned retirement teaching a new brood of would-be warriors what to do with the pointy end.



...Hmm...

*scribbles furiously*

[Dusk Eclipse]

Write it into your backstory.

"Bloody yet triumphant, Grubblesnout the kobold Blademaster sheathed his kukris and turned away from the fallen corpse of the necromancer. Sadly, he failed to notice the evil cleric's newly-freed wight minions lurking in the shadowy corner of the ritual chamber..."

Now you're on a quest to recover your lost blade techniques, so you can spend a well-earned retirement teaching a new brood of would-be warriors what to do with the pointy end.



...Hmm...

*scribbles furiously*

Don't know if my DM would allow that, but maybe I should try that......

No comments on my Feral Kobold Idea? (If I combine it with Dragonwrought and +3 mental stats, is not that bad, a -1 int is MUCH more beareable in my opinion)

[Urpriest]

Don't know if my DM would allow that, but maybe I should try that......

No comments on my Feral Kobold Idea? (If I combine it with Dragonwrought and +3 mental stats, is not that bad, a -1 int is MUCH more beareable in my opinion)

Feral+kobold is definitely a better use of LA than Poison Dusk in most situations. Sounds good if you can get your DM to go for it.

Write it into your backstory.

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Nope. Remember the point I made earlier: young at character creation, not level one. Backstory happens before character creation, by definition.

[Maho-Tsukai]

There is something else everybody is forgetting about Dragonwrought, which is that if your character is a caster they can use some of the sovereign archetypes to give him/herself all cleric spells. This is a great boon for dread necromancers, beguilers or other fixed-list casters who suddenly go from a limited spell list to a spell list even larger then a cleric.

[Psyren]

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Nope. Remember the point I made earlier: young at character creation, not level one. Backstory happens before character creation, by definition.

I was responding to your response to BeholderSlayer. It's not my fault your exception wasn't broad enough to fully counter his assertion.

And technically, backstory is part of character creation, since you, y'know, need a character in order for him/her to have a backstory.

But we're thoroughly off the rails now.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Feral+kobold is definitely a better use of LA than Poison Dusk in most situations. Sounds good if you can get your DM to go for it.

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Nope. Remember the point I made earlier: young at character creation, not level one. Backstory happens before character creation, by definition.

Ok, right now I have the rough idea for the character at level 1 (ECL 2)

Dragonwrought Feral Desert Kobold

Feats: Dragonwrought, Adaptive Style (flaw: vulnerable IG justifrication, he is so used to rely on his though scales, that he never really bothered to learn how to defend himself properly), Improved Natural Attack (claw) (flaw: Shaky would be the thematic choice, since he wouldn't have the patience to aim or to properly use a ranged weapon, but I am afraid, it wouldn't work as a real flaw)

Maneuvers:
Wolf Fang Strike (eagernes to draw blood)
Sudden leap (movement, this little guy can't stand still for long)
Shadow Blade Technique (planing on being a descendant of a Shadow Dragon, so it is fitting fluff-wise)
Charging Minotaur (highly fitting, specially considering the feral template image )
Counter Charge (re-fluffed as insticts rather than careful reading of oponent movements)
Burning Blade (increased damage output)

Stances:
Child of Shadows (again , shadow dragon heritage manifesting)


Also Maho-Tsukai: One thing is dragonwrought, which kinda haves a cost (a feat) but Dragon Archetypes are cheese, even for me and besides, this a melee guy

[The Rabbler]

you could always grab the wyrm of war sovereign template for free feats or free maneuvers.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Tempting, as I can free th Tiger claw maneuvres from swordsage levels, to get my Diamond Mind maneuvre earlier (refluffed as instinctual battle clarity, honed through years of combat), but as a sovereingarchetype, it is not intended to be used by players (my personal interpretation of the RAI, take this with a grain of salt).

Besides I think I am stretching my DM lactose tolerance pretty thin with feral AND dragonwrought, I'll tell him tomorow what does he says about it.

[The Rabbler]

dragonwrought isn't all that cheesy until you actually apply templates to it, and feral is simply a strong choice to minimize your ability penalties. Personally, I'd allow war weaver as long as you don't also optimize your damage potential somehow (lightning maces + aptitude kukris for example).

[Morph Bark]

Ok, right now I have the rough idea for the character at level 1 (ECL 2)

Dragonwrought Feral Jungle Kobold

Fixed that for you.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I am fully aware that sovereign archtypes are uber cheese and I was not suggesting you give it to your character. I was simply pointing out that it's an abuse of dragonwrought which others in this topic forgot to point out. I am sorry if I did not make that clear enough.

Also, how are you handling the -4 strength as a melee type? Are you working towards Weapon Finesse? Or are you hoping for a generous point buy or good rolls? Or are you using a method of which I am unaware?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Feral template+generous point buy., a Feral Desert Kobold gives me a net modifier of -4 Int, +Wis

[Greenish]

to get my Diamond Mind maneuvre earlier (refluffed as instinctual battle clarity, honed through years of combat)

Isn't that pretty much the default fluff? It's only refluffing if you change the fluff.

Feral template+generous point buy., a Feral Desert Kobold gives me a net modifier of -4 Int, +Wis

A note about feral: I seem to recall that the template specifies that it replaces your natural armour instead of stacking with it, though that's rather minor for a kobold.

[The Rabbler]

wait. you're using the online supplement for kobolds, right? with slight build, right? wouldn't being a feral kobold then make you large for all intents and purposes but also effectively small whenever it would be beneficial?