4e Question - Deviation of Monsters

[GhostwheelZ]

Had a question for people who are immersed in and know D&D 4th edition well; how close do the general stats of monsters as outlined in the DMG compare to those that are published in the 4e monster books?

For example, do monsters usually have an attack roll of 5 + level (-2 for non-AC attacks)? Do most monsters have something like 21 + 8.5 per level? Do monsters usually have an AC of 14 + level? And so forth.

In short, how much do monsters in books deviate from the formula set in the monster manual?

(Other questions, less relevant; how well does the "budget of xp" system work? And how optimized do characters need to be to take down a monster of their level at the expected rate? If not at all, then optimized characters rip through monsters without a challenge. If too much, then unoptimized characters are going to have too hard of a time against enemies of similar level. Which way does it lean?)

Thanks much!

[Kurald Galain]

(Other questions, less relevant; how well does the "budget of xp" system work?

It varies. It depends a lot on the tactics, monster synergy, and terrain usage. It also depends on whether the party has a competent controller or not. Generally, both minions and solos are severely overcosted in terms of XP: you can easily double the amount of minions against most parties since they're cannon fodder, and you should never send in a solo without some support monsters (except for a few solos, particularly dragons).

And how optimized do characters need to be to take down a monster of their level at the expected rate?

The intent is that for a group of five PCs (that are not particularly optimized), a group of five equal-level monsters are an easy encounter. To challenge normal players, groups of level+2 monsters should be common, and you can use something higher for a boss encounter, or if your players are good at optimizing.

[dsmiles]

The intent is that for a group of five PCs (that are not particularly optimized), a group of five equal-level monsters are an easy encounter. To challenge normal players, groups of level+2 monsters should be common, and you can use something higher for a boss encounter, or if your players are good at optimizing.

Five? Why do I keep thinking four?

[Zombimode]

The 3e default group is a 4 man band. The 4e default group is a 5 man band.

[dsmiles]

The 3e default group is a 4 man band. The 4e default group is a 5 man band.

To me, that's one member too many. Maybe he's the keyboard player.

[Tengu_temp]

In short, how much do monsters in books deviate from the formula set in the monster manual?

Very little. The biggest deviations are when it comes to damage, but it tends to float around the proposed damage levels anyway. Do note that the formula changed in M&M2 - creatures become more offense-oriented and solos exchanged some of their HP for better resistances to being stun-locked by controllers.

[Duos Greanleef]

It's (RAW) 4 minions ate Heroic, 5 minions at Paragon, 6 Minions at Epic.

Also, watch out for Solo monsters all around. I've had combat drag on for hours after the At-Will grind starts, and the game just becomes no fun anymore.

[Oracle_Hunter]

The XP Budget system works pretty well, but it has some quirks:

Spoiler

Show

=LV Encounters are a good baseline if you are going to have 3-4Encounters per day. Otherwise, they're "easy." A standard encounter for "short day" party is going to be LV+2.

Minions are flexible in real value. Against n00b parties, 4 minions : 1 standard monster is reasonable; against experienced parties (particularly those with burst or static damage effects) the ratio climbs to 6:1 or 8:1. Ranged minions are worth more than melee minions.

Brutes are worth less than their XP value suggests. Soldiers are worth more.

Solos, aren't. Unless the Solo takes more than one turn per round (e.g. Behir) then it is going to get destroyed in the hands of a competent party and become really boring otherwise. Be sure to inclue some minions, if not brutes.

LV+3 and LV+4 are hard and very hard for mid- to low-optimized parties. LV+5 is going to kill someone, if not everyone.

Aside from that, the XP Budget works like it says. Read the DMG section on Encounter design and do what it says - it's pretty accurate.

[Meta]

The XP Budget system works pretty well, but it has some quirks:

Spoiler

Show

=LV Encounters are a good baseline if you are going to have 3-4Encounters per day. Otherwise, they're "easy." A standard encounter for "short day" party is going to be LV+2.

Minions are flexible in real value. Against n00b parties, 4 minions : 1 standard monster is reasonable; against experienced parties (particularly those with burst or static damage effects) the ratio climbs to 6:1 or 8:1. Ranged minions are worth more than melee minions.

Brutes are worth less than their XP value suggests. Soldiers are worth more.

Solos, aren't. Unless the Solo takes more than one turn per round (e.g. Behir) then it is going to get destroyed in the hands of a competent party and become really boring otherwise. Be sure to inclue some minions, if not brutes.

LV+3 and LV+4 are hard and very hard for mid- to low-optimized parties. LV+5 is going to kill someone, if not everyone.

Aside from that, the XP Budget works like it says. Read the DMG section on Encounter design and do what it says - it's pretty accurate.

These are pretty good benchmarks. I will say that a level +5 encounter is not an insta kill having completed one (i think( two nights ago. level 12 party, level 17 encounter of Behir, Dire Shark, Chimera. And our party would fall into the moderately optimized category for the most part.

I think the nastiest thing to look out for when making encounters is status effects. Githzerai Cenobite for instance has an at-will stun against fortitude. Very destructive against a high-heroic/low-paragon party

[DragonBaneDM]

It's (RAW) 4 minions ate Heroic, 5 minions at Paragon, 6 Minions at Epic.

Bwahahaha!!!

I've been throwing 12 at my Level 27 party througout Epic Tier!

I feel so silly. Thank KORD this was corrected. I'm throwing a Sire of Corruption at them with waves of each type of corrupted minion. I'll fix this problem now. Thanks man!

These are pretty good benchmarks. I will say that a level +5 encounter is not an insta kill having completed one (i think( two nights ago. level 12 party, level 17 encounter of Behir, Dire Shark, Chimera. And our party would fall into the moderately optimized category for the most part.

Also, I knew there was a reason why Briggsy is down to 38 HP and no surges. That last daily better rock this last encounter. And yeah, it was Saturday, so two nights ago would be correct.

Trust me, I remember that stinking Chimera... I'm just like Belkar. The ranger who hates Chimeras. Now to track the fool's family down.

[TheEmerged]

RE: Minions. I threw 125 11th level minions (that only had ranged attacks) at an 11th level 5-member party in a large cavern (terrain was not really a factor). 5 rounds later, they were done. None of the party was ever down more than a healing surge, and no dailies were harmed in the making of this encounter

[Sploosh]

RE: Minions. I threw 125 11th level minions (that only had ranged attacks) at an 11th level 5-member party in a large cavern (terrain was not really a factor). 5 rounds later, they were done. None of the party was ever down more than a healing surge, and no dailies were harmed in the making of this encounter

Is there a story with this?

[Aron Times]

I love exploding minions.

[TheEmerged]

Is there a story with this?

Not much of one Party recently moved into Paragon levels. I noticed the first couple of fights that they were chewing through minions more quickly that I expected. I knew an upcoming encounter series was going to be chasing Kakashi (a scarecrow liche) through the underworld, so I decided (as a test) to throw a large number of melee minions at them as part of the escape.

As expected the party had little trouble getting the first team down and Kakashi on the run. Kakashi drops through a hole, the party follows. They find themselves in the middle of 125 mushroom minions.

Hilarity... er, mushroom slaughter ensues.