Alter Self-How is it abused?

[thompur]

I've seen a lot of threads that mention Alter Self as an overpowered spell. Given its limitations, 5 hd, same type(usually humanoid), keep your own ability scores(so no added power there), no Ex. abilities, no Su. Abilities. So what's the big deal? What am I missing? What are the most serious abuses?

[Dusk Eclipse]

/thread right here

[Last Laugh]

http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...for_Alter_Self
Alter self handbook by PhaedrusXY
should explain a bit.
Edit. A ninja made me sad :(

[Amphetryon]

"We need to get to the top of that edifice." *Alter Self: Raptoran* - Flight.

"The MacGuffin is stuck way down at the bottom of this huge body of water." *Alter Self: Sea Kin* -Swim speed and ability to function underwater.

etc.

Not to mention various natural attacks you can acquire by changing your type to, for instance, Shifter or Darfellan.

[Dusk Eclipse]

http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...for_Alter_Self
Alter self handbook by PhaedrusXY
should explain a bit.
Edit. A ninja made me sad :(

Swordsage, actually

Edit: As far as natural attacker go, gibbering mouther aregreat option if you have the abberation type (elan, synad and Daelkyr Half blood), 6 Natural attacks. at 4 HD

[lsfreak]

Yea, Alter Self is extremely strong when you're humanoid (high amounts of natural armor, fly/burrow/swim/climb speeds, skill bonuses, bonus feats) but downright abusive when you're an aberration or an outsider.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I prefer Dragonforms, but they are only accessible throug dragonwrought kobolds, Shadow Wyrmling is my favorite by the way.

[thompur]

Swordsage, actually

Edit: As far as natural attacker go, gibbering mouther aregreat option if you have the abberation type (elan, synad and Daelkyr Half blood), 6 Natural attacks. at 4 HD

Meh. Six natural attacks that do 1 hp damage. Unless you have SA or similar bonus damage, you've just become an annoyance. Plus you have no limbs with which to use somatic components, so a lot of spells are not castable while in this form.

I looked over the linked thread, and didn't see any really game breaking abuses.

[Mordokai]

Yea, Alter Self is extremely strong when you're humanoid (high amounts of natural armor, fly/burrow/swim/climb speeds, skill bonuses, bonus feats) but downright abusive when you're an aberration or an outsider.

Reaaaaaallllly?

Mind giving me few ideas? It's not like I'm playing a succubus in our current campaign... *whistles nonchallantly*

[ZeroNumerous]

I looked over the linked thread, and didn't see any really game breaking abuses.

Alter Self is broken in the same way as spells like Knock, Polymorph or Web. It replaces or mitigates the effect of another party member(rogue/fighter) or renders an encounter easy to defeat with a spell. Alter Self->Raptoran(or winged elf) and a crossbow makes you immune to all enemies who can't fly/don't have ranged weapons. Dragonwrought Kobolds with Alter Self->Dragon(any variety) are equally immune. Any creature type with Alter Self->High Natural Armor creature and a longspear will usually replace the prototypical sword-and-board fighter with ease.

Alter Self, by itself, isn't broken. Alter Self when your enemy has only melee weapons, or Alter Self when your enemy has low attack bonuses, makes it broken.

[Wings of Peace]

Reaaaaaallllly?

Mind giving me few ideas? It's not like I'm playing a succubus in our current campaign... *whistles nonchallantly*

Outsider types (including Native Outsiders) can become Dwarven Ancestors (MM3) and gain +17 Na and the large size category. I use it in a lot of gish builds.

[thompur]

Alter Self is broken in the same way as spells like Knock, Polymorph or Web. It replaces or mitigates the effect of another party member(rogue/fighter) or renders an encounter easy to defeat with a spell. Alter Self->Raptoran(or winged elf) and a crossbow makes you immune to all enemies who can't fly/don't have ranged weapons. Dragonwrought Kobolds with Alter Self->Dragon(any variety) are equally immune. Any creature type with Alter Self->High Natural Armor creature and a longspear will usually replace the prototypical sword-and-board fighter with ease.Alter Self, by itself, isn't broken. Alter Self when your enemy has only melee weapons, or Alter Self when your enemy has low attack bonuses, makes it broken.

I disagree here, because the "Altered" spell caster will still have his/her crappy BAB.

Most of the "abuses" that I see are theoretical, and easy to prepare for by a reasonably seasoned and prepared DM. Also, a lot of abuses assume that either the DM allows all materials, or that someone in the group owns all the books.
What abuses have you actually seen in actual play in your games?

[Eldariel]

Meh. Six natural attacks that do 1 hp damage. Unless you have SA or similar bonus damage, you've just become an annoyance. Plus you have no limbs with which to use somatic components, so a lot of spells are not castable while in this form.

I looked over the linked thread, and didn't see any really game breaking abuses.

You retain your own Str so you can be dealing a lot, lot more than 1 point hit. E.g. use another 10 min/level spell, Bull's Strength, and play someone with 18 base Str (some manner of a future Gish). Suddenly it's 7 per hit. Which is rather nice for level 4; full attack for 7*6 = 42 points, something most level 4 Fighters and Barbarians have trouble doing even expending all their resources. And your To Hit will be +8 or something, which isn't half bad.

You'll also have +8 Natural Armor on top of your Mage Armor and Dex which means you could easily have a mid 20s AC, way more than basically anyone level 4 generally has.


If you happen to be an outsider, Ravid is a nice form. +15 Natural Armor? Cool. It may or may not grant flight; it's one of the most convoluted creatures on that note, though it probably shouldn't. Add to that 3 different natural weapons and you're good. Trogdolyte (and outside Core, Tren) are +6 and +8 Natural Armor options for Humanoids and, of course, you have access to flight in Avariels or whatever.

The point is, the spell does way more than a 2nd level spell should, and is head and shoulders above all other effects on that level. And it's 10 min/level. For comparison, Fly on level 3 is 1 min/level. Alter Self allows flight, burrowing, swim speeds and combat buffs (notably immense AC bonuses). So...just figure that one out for yourself.

I disagree here, because the "Altered" spell caster will still have his/her crappy BAB.

...you do realize that that's +2 to hit at this point? Like, the same e.g. Bull's Strength grants in a bonus? Honestly, low level attacks are stat checks, plain and simple. All that matters is whether your To Hit stat is good or bad. BAB really just doesn't factor in all that much.

[thompur]

Outsider types (including Native Outsiders) can become Dwarven Ancestors (MM3) and gain +17 Na and the large size category. I use it in a lot of gish builds.

Actually it's +18 NA and -1 for size, but it comes out the same. Okay, yeah, that's kind of broken.

[jiriku]

Reaaaaaallllly?

Mind giving me few ideas? It's not like I'm playing a succubus in our current campaign... *whistles nonchallantly*

I happen to be playing a succubus in my current game. A succubus gets alternate form, which is not quite the same as alter self, but here are some of the best forms:

Stealth:
skulk
dark creeper
dark stalker
kobold

Combat:
varag
dark creeper
dark stalker

Aerial:
hadozee
raptoran

Aquatic:
darfellan
locathath
merfolk

Social:
Half-elf

I find that skulk form + Mindsight feat + at-will suggestion is an excellent platform for stealthily moving about the battlefield without being noticed, using Mindsight + telepathy to function as the party AWACS, keeping all party members informed of the locations of all enemies, while sowing a little chaos and disruption with suggestion, which I can deliver via telepathy to avoid revealing my location.

[gbprime]

You retain your own Str so you can be dealing a lot, lot more than 1 point hit. E.g. use another 10 min/level spell, Bull's Strength, and play someone with 18 base Str (some manner of a future Gish). Suddenly it's 7 per hit. Which is rather nice for level 4; full attack for 7*6 = 42 points, something most level 4 Fighters and Barbarians have trouble doing even expending all their resources. And your To Hit will be +8 or something, which isn't half bad.

Put it in a Wondrous Item, scroll, or wand, and give it to the Rogue with her Use Magic Device Skill. Oh look... 6 attacks... and she's flanking... and has the Craven feat.

That's the gift that keeps on giving, right up until you just start Polymorphing her into a Hydra instead. 8 heads, 10 heads, 12 heads... Nom, nom, nom... and don't forget Haste.