Ideas on how to improve the Scout?

[Cardea]

So I've been wanting to play a Scout for the longest time, but the problem is: Its really, really weak. While it does have the benefit of having the somewhat increased damage if it moves at least ten feet, thats the only time it can really come in handy in combat. It gains some nice little bonuses, but overall, its incredibly weak.

To this end, I want to come up with a Scout Fix, but I want some comments on how to do so from people on the boards who have played with them: Tell me guys, what do you think could be done to improve this class?

[Godless_Paladin]

A start would be to look at multiclass, optimized scout builds and see what features they're grabbing. See, for example, Swift Hunter builds.

[ErrantX]

Multiclass ranger and use the Swift Hunter feat (Comp Scoundrel). I like Scout 4/Ranger 16 myself. Full skirmish, full favored enemy, almost full ranger spells and attack bonus.

-X

[jiriku]

In RAW a scout/ranger multiclass with the Swift Hunter feat is the usual solution. I took the liberty of building a single class that hybridizes the two and corrects some other mechanical imbalances. Have a look if you like.

[Godskook]

Iirc, the only glaring 'fix' that the scout needs is a skill list more comparable to his rogue cousin. The worst offenders are Disable Device and Open Lock, which are clearly part of the "Trapmonkey" role that the Scout is intended to play(he gets trapfinding, he should get the skills to deal with them). The list goes on, and the simple fix is to give Scout the rogue skill list. Other than that, its a playable rogue substitute, and with swift hunter, has far more reliable damage than your stock rogue(Remember improved skirmish exists and it is far easier to move and full attack than it is to activate SA).

[Prime32]

Yeah, Swift Hunter is basically the "Scout Fix" you're looking for, just like Tashalatora is the "Monk Fix".

[gbprime]

High flight move and flying combat feats (like Diving Charge) capitalize on movement you'll be doing already. Improved Skirmish is also a must.

And since you're hitting once a round anyway, a 1 level dip into Warlock for Hideous Blow (and blowing a feat for Practiced Spellcaster) adds another 3d6.

Raptoran Scout 5 / Warlock 1 with the smaller Chausible of Fell Power and 3 feats spent on Prac Spellcaster, Diving Charge, and Improved Skirmish, results in +10d6 to a melee hit once a round.

The downside... Cleric is a Raptoran's favored class. So you'll have an XP penalty once you pick up that Warlock level unless your DM allows a Raptoran to have scout as a favored class.

An option to avoid that requires a +2 Level Adjustment. Take a human or half elf and apply the Winged template from Savage Species. Your stats are better and you have a better flight move which is unrestricted in use, but it's a +2 LA.

[Frosty]

Swift hunter gives him decent damage, but it doesn't solve the scout's boring combat style. Every single round is "I move 20ft and Greater Manyshot AGAIN" or some close equivalent. At least melee folks have maneuvers like grapple, trip, disarm, etc.

I guess you can always ready an action to manyshot vs spellcasters.

[Godless_Paladin]

Swift hunter gives him decent damage, but it doesn't solve the scout's boring combat style. Every single round is "I move 20ft and Greater Manyshot AGAIN" or some close equivalent. At least melee folks have maneuvers like grapple, trip, disarm, etc.

I guess you can always ready an action to manyshot vs spellcasters.

Well if you wanted to make it a fun class, you'd make an initiator and use tiger claw and falling star style and whatever.

[Thefurmonger]

For what its worth I have had a LOT of fun with a scout after dipping CC and nabbing Travel devotion.

[the humanity]

dervish can help greatly.

[Telonius]

A level of Monk and a Sparring Dummy of the Master is another way to boost power. (Fairly expensive though).

[Cardea]

• @Swift Hunter Feat: I know its a viable option, but the problem is that I don't want to have to multi-class in order to make a Scout a much more appealing option.
• @Multi-classing: Again, don't want to have to multi-class to make Scout tons better.
• @Dervish: That would be interesting, but again, want to make Scout viable on its own.
• @Prime32: Yet people will make Monk Fixes to try and make Monk viable and more fun, which I'm trying to do with Scout.
• @jiriku: The class looks fine, and I'm probably going to use it at some point (As it looks really fun), but again, trying to make Scout itself viable.
• @Godskook: Yeah, I never understood why it wasn't part of their skillset. Guess I'll add that in when I try and 'fix' the Scout class.

[Fax Celestis]

Replace Skirmish with the Strafe ability from my Hunter class.

Strafe (Ex): A hunter learns how to move while attacking. Starting at 1st level, a hunter can make ranged attacks while moving. He can move both before and after an attack, provided that his total distance moved is not greater than his speed. During a strafe, he is allowed a single shot, as if he were making a standard attack action (not a full-attack). Performing a strafe is a full-round action that can be used only if the hunter is wearing light armor or no armor.

While strafing, the hunter deals an extra 1d6 points of damage. This is untyped precision damage, similar to that gained by a rogue's sneak attack. Creatures immune to critical hits or without a discernible anatomy (such as an ooze) are immune to the extra damage from a strafe. This damage increases by 1d6 every six levels, to 2d6 at 7th, 3d6 at 13th, and 4d6 at 19th. He also gains a bonus on attack rolls made during a strafe: +1 at 4th, +2 at 10th, and +3 at 16th.

At 4th level, and every six levels after (10th and 16th), the hunter gains the ability to make extra shots while moving. He must move at least 5' between each shot. Each shot deals extra damage and uses its own attack rolls. The second shot is made at the hunter's base attack bonus -5, the third at -10, and the fourth at -15--as if they were iterative attacks made in a full-attack.

[Barlen]

Iirc, the only glaring 'fix' that the scout needs is a skill list more comparable to his rogue cousin. The worst offenders are Disable Device and Open Lock, which are clearly part of the "Trapmonkey" role that the Scout is intended to play(he gets trapfinding, he should get the skills to deal with them). The list goes on, and the simple fix is to give Scout the rogue skill list. Other than that, its a playable rogue substitute, and with swift hunter, has far more reliable damage than your stock rogue(Remember improved skirmish exists and it is far easier to move and full attack than it is to activate SA).

Disable device was added to the class in the errata. Makes sense since they get trapfinding. Open lock is still cross class.

[Thrawn183]

Swift hunter gives him decent damage, but it doesn't solve the scout's boring combat style. Every single round is "I move 20ft and Greater Manyshot AGAIN" or some close equivalent. At least melee folks have maneuvers like grapple, trip, disarm, etc.

I guess you can always ready an action to manyshot vs spellcasters.

There are some ranged feats that you can take... ranged pin/sunder I think?

[SurlySeraph]

There are some ranged feats that you can take... ranged pin/sunder I think?

Ranged Pin is problematic because the Scout's low BAB doesn't make for good grapple checks, and you wouldn't get Skirmish damage on it. It's usable, though. Going into Master Thrower so you can make ranged trip attacks is feat-intensive, but could be worthwhile.

But you said you wanted to focus on pure Scout. Well, Knowledge Devotion is a start; Know (nature) and Know (dungeoneering) are there by default, and there are ways to get others as class skills: a Cloistered Cleric dip, which is extremely good for Travel Devotion, a Factotum dip for 1-3 levels, or the feats Educated or Able Learner. The Improved Skirmish feat is always nice, though not a must.

Every scout needs to be able to full attack while moving. The main ways are Travel Devotion, Greater Manyshot, or a barbarian dip for Pounce for a melee scout, though there are others. But having at least one is obligatory.

The Scout's bonus feats are pretty meh, though some of them are useful as prerequisites. Going for Shot on the Run may actually be worthwhile, though if you can get a fix so that the scout essentially has it for free when skirmishing (as in Fax's suggestion), that's of course better. Quick Reconnoiter is nice, Improved Initiative is always good filler (though less important for a scout than for most, since unlike a rogue he doesn't need to catch targets flat-footed and he'll have high Init anyway), most of the rest are nothing special.

A lot of a Scout's advantages are out of combat, what with how he's a scout. Using stealth and senses to your advantage so you can set up ambushes is helpful.

As you've noticed, a lot of my suggestions are dips. That's because Scouts really, really benefit from multiclassing. Swift Hunter builds are the most effective skirmishers, Pounce is crucial for melee scouts, Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion and Knowledge Devotion is very helpful, a Swordsage level or two can greatly improve your survivability (with Child of Shadow stance and the Diamond Mind save-replacing maneuvers) and/or your damage (with various Desert Wind maneuvers and Desert Wind Dodge), plus gives you some extra options for when "I move and shoot again" isn't helping (like against constructs or when immobilized).

[Dark_Nohn]

Swift hunter gives him decent damage, but it doesn't solve the scout's boring combat style. Every single round is "I move 20ft and Greater Manyshot AGAIN" or some close equivalent. At least melee folks have maneuvers like grapple, trip, disarm, etc.

I guess you can always ready an action to manyshot vs spellcasters.

Manyshot only applies precision damage to the first hit, thus useless for precision builds. My say is take ONE level of psion or psychic warrior (depending on what kind of powers you want access to,) then take elocater to 7 for Capricious Step for an additional 5-foot step each turn, so you can always move 10 feet then make a full attack.

Also note that in higher level situations, knowing that something is trapped is well enough as a good arcanist will let the party bypass the trap somehow.

EDIT: dir/p, I missed the greater part

[Dusk Eclipse]

But Greater Manyshot applies to all

Greater Manyshot [General]

You are skilled at firing many arrows at once, even at different opponents.
Prerequisites

Dex 17, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit

When you use the Manyshot feat, you can fire each arrow at a different target instead of firing all of them at the same target. You make a separate attack roll for each arrow, regardless of whether you fire them at separate targets or the same target. Your precision-based damage applies to each arrow fired, and, if you score a critical hit with more than one of the arrows, each critical hit deals critical damage.
Special

A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Enphasis mine

Linky (just scroll down to Greater Manyshot entry, or cntl+F)

[jiriku]

@jiriku: The class looks fine, and I'm probably going to use it at some point (As it looks really fun), but again, trying to make Scout itself viable.

As you've noticed, a lot of my suggestions are dips. That's because Scouts really, really benefit from multiclassing.

Exactly. The best way to make the scout viable is to dip other classes for certain critical things that the scout should have had, but doesn't. The dips are patches over the holes in the scout class. The swift hunter base class I wrote is essentially scout+patches. If you dislike its casty aspect, the ACF list also includes the option to trade the casting for scout-style bonus feats (although I added more scout-enhancing feats to the list and removed the crappy Akbar feats).

If you want to hang in the original rules and avoid homebrew, however, the Improved Skirmish feat is good, as is Mobile Dodge. Sets you up nicely for the Spring Attack line of feats, which isn't the greatest set of feats in the world, but at least they synergize with Skirmish. Alternately, just pump your Tumble so that you can make the DC 40 Tumble check to move 10' as a 5'-step. Gets you full-attack+skirmish.

Scout gets a nice skill list. Deck out your Int score decently to take full advantage of that list, and be the team's eyes and ears when going into enemy territory.

I'm rather fond of combining scout+barbarian+a guisarme or glaive. Deals excellent damage, especially at low levels when everybody is making only one attack per round anyhow, and some of the alternate rage forms like Ferocity and Whirling Frenzy are especially useful to a mobile skirmisher.

[Coidzor]

Use this quote when you're posting your fix.

Grass grows, birds fly, sun shines, and brother, I hurt people.

Make skirmish work with mounted movement again, for one. Improve the functional range of skirmish out to 50-60 feet.

Cut down on the feat tax to get to greater manyshot's capabilities.

[Runestar]

Iirc, the only glaring 'fix' that the scout needs is a skill list more comparable to his rogue cousin. The worst offenders are Disable Device and Open Lock, which are clearly part of the "Trapmonkey" role that the Scout is intended to play(he gets trapfinding, he should get the skills to deal with them).

I actually remember reading a pretty convincing argument about why the scout shouldn't get disable device/open lock. Something about him being a wilderness sort of person, and so would not have opportunities to pick up said skills.

Now, if only there were some way to make melee scouts viable without having to dip for pounce...

[Coidzor]

I actually remember reading a pretty convincing argument about why the scout shouldn't get disable device/open lock. Something about him being a wilderness sort of person, and so would not have opportunities to pick up said skills.

They get trapfinding as a class feature. There are wilderness-possible traps (including those of monsters that would want to eat a lone humanamoid). So, yeah, no.

Open lock, maybe, but their party role of skill monkey demands it.

[Runestar]

They get trapfinding as a class feature. There are wilderness-possible traps (including those of monsters that would want to eat a lone humanamoid). So, yeah, no.

Open lock, maybe, but their party role of skill monkey demands it.

Remove trapfinding then? Though I certainly agree it won't break the class.

Here's the thread I was talking about.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-leg...kill-list.html

[Coidzor]

So taking away a class feature from a skillful character (note the number of skill points) that enables them to fulfill a party role is supposed to improve them.

Yeah...

[Runestar]

So taking away a class feature from a skillful character (note the number of skill points) that enables them to fulfill a party role is supposed to improve them.

Yeah...

Rangers and bards get 6+int mod skill points, and can fill in a scout role as well, but nobody complains that they don't get trapfinding.

As another example, the shadow thief of amn prc (a rogue prc) does not get hide as a class skill either. My point is that we shouldn't just pigeon-hole it into a certain role and then assign abilities based on that, but rather evaluate independently whether it ought to get those abilities or not. More of a 5th wheel, than a direct substitute for the rogue.

Naturally, while it loses trapfinding, it would be compensated with other class features.

[Greenish]

The limited range of precision damage is also annoying for scout, since unless you invest into having a huge move, you'll have to dance within charge range.

Iirc, the only glaring 'fix' that the scout needs is a skill list more comparable to his rogue cousin. The worst offenders are Disable Device and Open Lock, which are clearly part of the "Trapmonkey" role that the Scout is intended to play(he gets trapfinding, he should get the skills to deal with them).

Isn't there an errata giving them at least Disable Device?

Replace Skirmish with the Strafe ability from my Hunter class.

Pretty nice, though missing out on Rapid Shot, Haste, Whirling Frenzy, Speed weapons and the other stuff to gain more attacks will sting. Well, at least the ability itself gives one extra attack.

[TheFallenOne]

I played a dwarfen scout through the Eberron module Shadows of the Last War, it highlighted quite well the shortcomings of the class because of the density of crit-immune and thus skirmish-immune enemies. Neverethless, he was fun to play, versatile and did never get overshadowed by the groups artificer, sorcerer, sorcerer/warlock or rogue/cleric(yes, my scout had to play meat shield...)

It all depends on the power level of the other characters. Get Swift Hunter and things like undead, constructs or elementals as favoured enemies so skirmish works on them. Also, the weapon crystals that let you use sneak/skirmish on undead or constructs are worth a look.
ToB maneuvers are helpful since you'll make no full attacks anyway, you can get some maneuvers through items as well. Sudden Leap can let you get skirmish while full attacking with a swift jump, and there is a stance to make 2 5 foot steps.

A scout is entirely playable. It's not the best class, but I like the flavour and the density of class features on early levels