[3.5] CR Adjustment for House Rule?

[Drakevarg]

Not sure if this belonged here or the Homebrew board, but it seemed like a simple enough question to not warrant a Homebrew thread.

In my campaign setting, there are no natural lycanthropes. Instead, afflicted lycanthropes can pass on the Curse on their own. But, an important thought arose, which is "where do these curses start in the first place?"

The solution I came up with was Dire animals. I ruled that all Dire animals carry the Curse of Lycanthropy for their non-dire counterparts. (This has the logical effect of Wererats being rather common in large cities.) Anyway, it occurs to me that if any encounter with a Dire animal has a chance of turning you into a psychotic fuzzy murder-machine, that might increase the CR of the fight.

Would the Playground agree?

[mootoall]

Yes. LA hurts. Period.

[Drakevarg]

Yes. LA hurts. Period.

Y'know, I've never really understood that complaint except during CharGen. After all, LA or not you've just been arbuptly made several levels ahead of the rest of your party, power-wise. Sure, you'll level slightly slower from now on, but you'll probably still be ahead of the rest of the party for quite a while.

[Marnath]

It should be worth greater CR, yes. I would be wary of making this a rule though, because catching lycanthropy on your pc is unpleasant pretty much in all cases where you didn't wanna make one already. Plus, lycanthropes will be much more common foes, and they're a pain to fight without silver weapons.

[Jack_Simth]

Depends.

If the curse takes hold immediately, transforming the victim right then and there, turning them on the party, then yes, definitely, as it's got a save-or-lose attack at-will that doesn't interfere with it's normal attacks.

If you leave it as the MM describes, and the curse takes hold on the first night of the next full moon, not so much - as there's several ways to get rid of it. Makes the beasts slightly more threatening, but not enough of itself to warrant a CR increase in most cases.

[Drakevarg]

If you leave it as the MM describes, and the curse takes hold on the first night of the next full moon, not so much - as there's several ways to get rid of it. Makes the beasts slightly more threatening, but not enough of itself to warrant a CR increase in most cases.

So slightly worse, but doesn't warrant a higher CR.

Plus, lycanthropes will be much more common foes, and they're a pain to fight without silver weapons.

Well, if lycanthropes were much more common, it'd be logical that silver weapons would also be so.

[Eldariel]

Y'know, I've never really understood that complaint except during CharGen. After all, LA or not you've just been arbuptly made several levels ahead of the rest of your party, power-wise. Sure, you'll level slightly slower from now on, but you'll probably still be ahead of the rest of the party for quite a while.

The issue is, the XP cap for your next level becomes obscene. And you start leveling much slower. In other words, you gain an immediate huge advantage but you'll never get even again; especially not if you're not a martial type but even as a martial type, having 2 LA is not my idea of "efficient", not having a bunch of animal HD. Like, let's say you're afflicted level 4 Fighter. You're afflicted by a Werewolf. You become:

2 LA/2 HD/Fighter 4

Or level 8. You have 6000xp on level 4. You now need 36000 to gain the next level. Not only that, but you gain ½ the experience of your teammates until few levels later. Which means that if you on average need 13 CR appropriate encounters to level again, you now need 26 to get to the would-be level 5. And then about 24 to get to level 6. And then about 18 to get to level 20. And then about 15 to get to level 8. And then 13 to get to level 9. So for about 100 encounters to gain a level.

And the first encounters you'll probably more or less chew up. You have a huge DR, two extra HDs granting you BAB and HP, and some minor stat bonuses. Well, when you can control the shaping anyways (thing is, you need lots of ranks in Control Shape and you can't take those until your next level; sucks to be you).


But when encounters get closer to your level (e.g. level 8), you'll be of no use. You'll be 3 BAB behind equivalent Fighters not to mention 2 feats and tons of skills and saves and so on. And that's comparing to the straight Fighter which gains very little on those levels. So...uhh, ouch.

Yeah, first it's gonna make the next encounters too easy and make you hog the spotlight. Then it'll make you gradually take the back seat and start sucking. And then it'll eventually make you more or less worthless. And that is, if you somehow shift appropriately. Oh, and you become Lawful Evil 'cause hehe, that's what being a Werewolf does.

[Tyndmyr]

Y'know, I've never really understood that complaint except during CharGen. After all, LA or not you've just been arbuptly made several levels ahead of the rest of your party, power-wise. Sure, you'll level slightly slower from now on, but you'll probably still be ahead of the rest of the party for quite a while.

Slightly? It's the kiss of death for some builds.

Yay, my caster now has abilities that do not help him cast at all. You haven't given him anything. You've forced him to take levels in Furry instead of Wizard.

[Mystic Muse]

*Some good points*

This is in addition to the fact that you only give one tenth the XP the players would normally get.

[Drakevarg]

Oh, and you become Lawful Evil 'cause hehe, that's what being a Werewolf does.

Well, at least I scrapped that, on account of it being annoying and nonsensical.

[Eldariel]

Well, at least I scrapped that, on account of it being annoying and nonsensical.

Really, it's not nearly as fun if it doesn't influence your behavior when you shape. Why else would it be a bad affliction? Adventurers polymorph and grow tentacles and stuff all the time; that makes them more scary!

[Kylarra]

Well in your games where characters aren't likely to live to the next level it's probably not too bad, assuming that there are enough viable preventive measures that can be taken. If they're common then knowing how to stop it should be fairly common too.

[Drakevarg]

Really, it's not nearly as fun if it doesn't influence your behavior when you shape. Why else would it be a bad affliction? Adventurers polymorph and grow tentacles and stuff all the time; that makes them more scary!

I never said it didn't influence your behavior. I said it doesn't arbitrarily change your alignment. It just makes you act like your base animal.

Wolves, if you haven't noticed, aren't Lawful Evil.

Slightly? It's the kiss of death for some builds.

Yay, my caster now has abilities that do not help him cast at all. You haven't given him anything. You've forced him to take levels in Furry instead of Wizard.

Well if he hates it that badly, he can just go get remove curse casted on him next full moon.

[Eldariel]

I never said it didn't influence your behavior. I said it doesn't arbitrarily change your alignment. It just makes you act like your base animal.

Wolves, if you haven't noticed, aren't Lawful Evil.

They also aren't intelligent enough to have alignments

[Drakevarg]

They also aren't intelligent enough to have alignments

And when you're in pre-WIS-check instinct mode, neither are you.

Even if you extrapolated a normal wolf's nature to something with a higher intellect, it's still not in line with the sadistic conniving ******* stereotype of LE.

If I had to come up with instincts for them to follow? Probably a loss of fearing humans, but still recognizing them as fellow predators (ergo, not food unless you're starving), extremely loyal to their precived pack, and a tendancy to fight for dominance over said pack. Perhaps defaulting away from Good due to a lack of compulsion against murder, but not Evil due to a lack of compulsion towards murder.

Besides, instincts can be overcome.

[Marnath]

I agree. If you made a smart wolf, you'd end up with a hairy version of a human hunter. Nothing evil about hunting. Wolves gotta eat, you know.

[Tyndmyr]

Well if he hates it that badly, he can just go get remove curse casted on him next full moon.

In the low magic horror setting where casting spells risks summoning eldritch horrors, and the characters level at 1/10th the speed?

They have access to that?

[Eldariel]

And when you're in pre-WIS-check instinct mode, neither are you.

Even if you extrapolated a normal wolf's nature to something with a higher intellect, it's still not in line with the sadistic conniving ******* stereotype of LE.

If I had to come up with instincts for them to follow? Probably a loss of fearing humans, but still recognizing them as fellow predators (ergo, not food unless you're starving), extremely loyal to their precived pack, and a tendancy to fight for dominance over said pack. Perhaps defaulting away from Good due to a lack of compulsion against murder, but not Evil due to a lack of compulsion towards murder.

Besides, instincts can be overcome.

Your Int never changes when you shift; a Werewolf is always intelligent regardless of shape. You just become more feral. And apparently evil. Though chaotic evil according to SRD but still, yeah.

[Marnath]

It's the "apparently CE" that he has trouble with. It doesn't really make any sense.

[Drakevarg]

In the low magic horror setting where casting spells risks summoning eldritch horrors, and the characters level at 1/10th the speed?

They have access to that?

1/2 the speed.

And remove curse is a 3rd level spell. By my setting's rules, any city with a population of 10000 or more will have a Cleric capable of casting that on you. Worst case scenario, a 5th Level Fiendish Orc Blackguard (homebrew version, basically Paladin with the alignment effects reversed) pops into the room and tries to kill him.

Though chaotic evil according to SRD but still, yeah.

Which makes even less sense.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Which makes even less sense.

when did D&D make sense? especially LA and lycanthropy/vampirism/any non-consesual template

[Drakevarg]

when did D&D make sense? especially LA and lycanthropy/vampirism/any non-consesual template

Since I kicked it in the balls and told it to or it gets the hose again.

[Callista]

Think about the results of lycanthropy being more common in your game world.

1. Silver weapons will be more common, and silver more valuable. Have silver and gold switch places in value (if it cost 30 gp 5 sp in a normal world, now it'll cost 30 sp 5 gp, that kind of thing).

2. Knowledge about lycanthropy will be more common. Identifying a lycanthrope or knowing the common weaknesses of a lycanthrope should be a DC 10 knowledge check, and information possessed by the majority of commoners.

3. Cities and towns will have standard procedures to deal with lycanthropes. In some areas, there may be jail cells that lycanthropes are required to check into before every full moon. Other cities may routinely scry for lycanthropes and execute them. On the other hand, Clerics and wizards might have researched a cure for lycanthropy that's more effective than before, and people who are bitten by a dire animal generally report for treatment in a similar way that people who are bitten by a rabid animal will report for treatment in the real world.

4. Lycanthropy will now be an easy way for the unscrupulous to gain physical power--at the cost of becoming a danger to everyone around them. Mr. Joe CE Commoner can now become Mr. Joe CE Werewolf--if he can survive being bitten. Cults, gangs, and similar organizations might have grown up around (probably illicit) use of lycanthropy in this fashion, so that new recruits might get into the organization, be infected with lycanthropy by a current member, and be tutored in learning how to control the affliction.

[Marnath]

Think about the results of lycanthropy being more common in your game world.

1. Silver weapons will be more common, and silver more valuable. Have silver and gold switch places in value (if it cost 30 gp 5 sp in a normal world, now it'll cost 30 sp 5 gp, that kind of thing).

2. Knowledge about lycanthropy will be more common. Identifying a lycanthrope or knowing the common weaknesses of a lycanthrope should be a DC 10 knowledge check, and information possessed by the majority of commoners.

3. Cities and towns will have standard procedures to deal with lycanthropes. In some areas, there may be jail cells that lycanthropes are required to check into before every full moon. Other cities may routinely scry for lycanthropes and execute them. On the other hand, Clerics and wizards might have researched a cure for lycanthropy that's more effective than before, and people who are bitten by a dire animal generally report for treatment in a similar way that people who are bitten by a rabid animal will report for treatment in the real world.

4. Lycanthropy will now be an easy way for the unscrupulous to gain physical power--at the cost of becoming a danger to everyone around them. Mr. Joe CE Commoner can now become Mr. Joe CE Werewolf--if he can survive being bitten. Cults, gangs, and similar organizations might have grown up around (probably illicit) use of lycanthropy in this fashion, so that new recruits might get into the organization, be infected with lycanthropy by a current member, and be tutored in learning how to control the affliction.

That seems very excessive. Dire animals aren't that common. Lycanthropy will be more common than normal, but that's not the same as being common.

[Drakevarg]

1. Silver weapons will be more common, and silver more valuable. Have silver and gold switch places in value (if it cost 30 gp 5 sp in a normal world, now it'll cost 30 sp 5 gp, that kind of thing).

Think I'll do that. Always liked silver more, anyway.

2. Knowledge about lycanthropy will be more common. Identifying a lycanthrope or knowing the common weaknesses of a lycanthrope should be a DC 10 knowledge check, and information possessed by the majority of commoners.

I was wondering what the Knowledge (Nature) DC should be to know that Dire animals carry lycanthopy.

3. Cities and towns will have standard procedures to deal with lycanthropes. In some areas, there may be jail cells that lycanthropes are required to check into before every full moon. Other cities may routinely scry for lycanthropes and execute them. On the other hand, Clerics and wizards might have researched a cure for lycanthropy that's more effective than before, and people who are bitten by a dire animal generally report for treatment in a similar way that people who are bitten by a rabid animal will report for treatment in the real world.

Good idea.

4. Lycanthropy will now be an easy way for the unscrupulous to gain physical power--at the cost of becoming a danger to everyone around them. Mr. Joe CE Commoner can now become Mr. Joe CE Werewolf--if he can survive being bitten. Cults, gangs, and similar organizations might have grown up around (probably illicit) use of lycanthropy in this fashion, so that new recruits might get into the organization, be infected with lycanthropy by a current member, and be tutored in learning how to control the affliction.

I was thinking that plenty of nomadic tribes would voluntarily inflict themselves to become closer to the animals they admire.

That seems very excessive. Dire animals aren't that common. Lycanthropy will be more common than normal, but that's not the same as being common.

I've ruled that Dire animals make up maybe 1% of the population of a particular animal. So while Dire Rats might be common simply due to the massive volume of rats, something like a Dire Bear is a once-in-a-blue-moon encounter.

[Callista]

I was going on the assumption that dire animals are about as common as rabid raccoons in the Midwest. If in your game world they're less common, then things could be different.

If you're going to make Dire animals uncommon or rare, then yeah, it wouldn't have as big an impact; but I was figuring you probably weren't going to do that because, well, why else make a house rule about lycanthropy if your game's not going to involve it to some significant degree?

[true_shinken]

+1 to all those saying how much LA sucks. I had a player with a melee warlock that was infected by a werewolf and he freaked out. Guy did anything he could to get his curse removed... and ironically it resulted in a heel face turn.

I really like those suggestions about silver and such.

[Tyndmyr]

+1 to all those saying how much LA sucks. I had a player with a melee warlock that was infected by a werewolf and he freaked out. Guy did anything he could to get his curse removed... and ironically it resulted in a heel face turn.

I really like those suggestions about silver and such.

Oh yeah, I would literally kill a character and take the hit for getting rezzed or rerolling before I'd try to play with a massive LA.

1/2 the speed.

When did you change it?

Also, you didn't really answer the question...do the players have access to dispel curse? Do they have casters with it, or do they know NPC casters with it, and can they afford to buy it if they need it?

[Drakevarg]

When did you change it?

After the Zombie Inn incident, I think.

Also, you didn't really answer the question...do the players have access to dispel curse? Do they have casters with it, or do they know NPC casters with it, and can they afford to buy it if they need it?

The party Cleric is a 1st level caster, so no they don't have it.

They personally know exactly one NPC caster with the spell. Unfortunately, he's the Big Bad. The only other divine caster they know is a 3rd level Ghoul Cleric, who can't cast it.

They could afford a casting of it, yes, but not a scroll of remove curse.

[awa]

personally i feel that whether it is worth a cr increase will vary depending on the animal. by the time your fighting the big dire animals curing the affliction becomes trivial and thus the encounter is not made substantially more dangerous.

although since in your version your alignment does not change its even less of a problem.