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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    So I keep looking at wall spells, they look tasty and in terms of tactical placement I keep wondering about the usage.

    What's your experience? They seem wonderful but I'm still fairly novice at the placements.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    I'm pretty weak at tactics, but another spellcaster and I made good use of two successively cast Wall of Fire spells to kill 100 troglodytes, and it was just as much fun as it sounds. (That being very, very fun.) I'm sure people have even more advanced tricks than that, though.

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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    If you're trying to use them tactically in a combat, you're usually going to be using them to divide/isolate your enemies. A wall of something between the mage and his meat shields makes him much easier pickings if you can get past the wall to the mage. These can sometimes be a challenge to work around- you end up blocking off easy access to someplace you need to go, or you have to spend more resources to get past the wall and deal with the opponents you isolated.

    You can also use your walls more directly offensively- using slide, greater slide, telekinesis, etc. can force opponents repeatedly up against/through your wall of fire, wall of gears, etc. Most of the damages involved aren't amazing, though. The most effective in my experience has been when I've been able to send someone through a blade barrier multiple times.
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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    If you play with a party/DM that thinks strategically they are very powerful at formation breaking.

    I (Marut) used WoF to separate a squishy from meat and then used a move to get near him. Party rushed to the rescue leaving the other squishy alone!? DD and AoO slam to blind... They all survived...

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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Walls don't win the battle, but they DO stave off disaster. They are battlefield control, and a wall in the right place will channel or delay the enemy, or provide a safe haven for a specialist to fight from. (Wall of water, character with swim speed, summon water elementals.)

    Offensive walls like Wall of Fire or Wall of Pain are usually only good for hitting the enemy ONCE, as they'll avoid them afterward. But if you or a party member have a good method of shoving the enemy around, you can keep throwing them in. (you'd best be immune to your own wall damage, however, or the enemy will just do it to YOU.)
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Also, my caster is currently a living construct with the Cloudy Conjuration feat (10' burst of sicken creatures-- no save), so using walls + clouds is another big thing to think about.

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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Wall of sand and wall of stone are good choices for a healbot cleric. You're all about keeping the party healthy, right? Barriers do that quite well.

    Dropping a wall in such a way that it breaks LoS for a squad of archers is a good tactic. Even if the archers simply take a move action to adjust position and then fire, you've denied them a full attack/rapid shot, which at higher levels will significantly reduce the damage they inflict.

    The druid's wall of thorns presents interesting options, as you can entrap foes within it when you create it. It's thus a triple-threat BC (barrier) + no-save, just-lose + damage spell. Lots of potential, but I rarely see it discussed or used.
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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    I recall an adventure in the Underdark I was once a part of - my first time playing a sorcerer, in fact! - where we were assaulted by drow from long range and were getting demolished by them and their crossbows, due to some particularly good DM rolls. So, in a sudden moment of genius, duck behind our bolt-riddled barbarian and ask the DM as to the size of the terribly narrow tunnel. Did I mention they were wearing magical collars that, when they died, informed their local fortress of their demise and spell doom as they sent killsquads after us? Because that's important.

    So, the DM (my Uncle, no less) rather smugly explaining the barely-ten feet high tunnel's size, is rendered speechless as I cast a wall of stone immediately behind the tightly packed Drow, and on my second turn, immediately cast another one. They suffocated just around the time we stole their little magic mcguffin from their scary fortress.

    He had intended us to all succumb to knockout poison and get locked in their dungeon, apparently. Luckily, with our assailants confined, the cleric was able to purge all that nasty poison. Good times.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Quote Originally Posted by DrWeird View Post
    I recall an adventure in the Underdark I was once a part of - my first time playing a sorcerer, in fact! - where we were assaulted by drow from long range and were getting demolished by them and their crossbows, due to some particularly good DM rolls. So, in a sudden moment of genius, duck behind our bolt-riddled barbarian and ask the DM as to the size of the terribly narrow tunnel. Did I mention they were wearing magical collars that, when they died, informed their local fortress of their demise and spell doom as they sent killsquads after us? Because that's important.

    So, the DM (my Uncle, no less) rather smugly explaining the barely-ten feet high tunnel's size, is rendered speechless as I cast a wall of stone immediately behind the tightly packed Drow, and on my second turn, immediately cast another one. They suffocated just around the time we stole their little magic mcguffin from their scary fortress.

    He had intended us to all succumb to knockout poison and get locked in their dungeon, apparently. Luckily, with our assailants confined, the cleric was able to purge all that nasty poison. Good times.
    Good story, as I was reading this I was thinking "20 drow along a 100' stretch and then cast a 120' wall down a 5' passage?"

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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    The shapeable walls are especially good. I love Wall of Stone, since its a no-save BC for anything that doesn't have a huge Str score. Its great for pinning down a dangerous TWFer, a non-Divine Powah cleric, or druid. Druids in particular generally rely on lots of attacks that do minor damage each to add up to big numbers. Stone's hardness really puts a cramp on them. That buys you at least 3-4 rounds while they maul through the wall that you can use to kill the druid's friends where he's not crapping mountains of hippogryphs all over the battlefield.

    And yea, Wall of Thorns is possibly the BEST wall ever printed. It doesn't get much attention because its level 5, which is already closing in on high levels, but its still pretty much amazing for what it can do. Even really big foes have a tough time with it, and it absolutely slaughters clerics and rogue type and such who don't have short range teleport abilities (which is why I ALWAYS suggest that people buy short range teleport items when gearing up their characters...ALWAYS).
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  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    I dunno, I found that by the time I felt like I had enough spell slots to cast Wall of Thorns everything had a high enough ac to ignore it, and/or Freedom of Movement and/or some method of flying, but maybe that's just my DM.

    Wall of stone just never seems big enough for me. (Again, could be the aforementioned DM.) Shouldn't your hypothetical druid just be flying over it? Although I was thinking of a combo of making a Wall of Stone bridge overhead (in a vertical cavern), then using soften earth and stone to drop it on the baddie - it seems like it should work. (I'd use stone-> mud but I didn't prepare it.)

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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Assuming said druid is in a combat form like Dire Tiger or Dire Bear, rather than operating as an arial bombardment platform slinging spells, then he should be grounded barring something like Mass Fly.

    And again, they aren't good against EVERYTHING, but things like soft armor skirmishers and any casters lacking short range teleports really get locked down good.
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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Wall of stone's shapeability makes it highly flexible. A DM once trapped our party in what he expected to be a slaughterhouse encounter -- we were on an open plain with no cover, caught in a crossfire between a dozen arrow demons firing from atop tall pillars, the arrow demons having a considerable range advantage as well.

    The DM expected a bloody slaughter of PCs, but I beat the demons to initiative and used wall of stone to create a miniature fortress around us, complete with a parapet and machicolated battlements. Improved cover gave us a massive advantage against the archers, and they couldn't get past the walls without coming inside the mini-fortress and thus into melee range.

    Good times.
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  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Also I have a construct who is immune to fire, so I'm liking the WoF idea.

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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    Assuming said druid is in a combat form like Dire Tiger or Dire Bear, rather than operating as an arial bombardment platform slinging spells, then he should be grounded barring something like Mass Fly.
    Druids get Air Walk to keep them 'flying' for rather long periods of time. Not as good as proper flight, but works quite well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lev View Post
    Also I have a construct who is immune to fire, so I'm liking the WoF idea.
    By any chance does said construct also have magic immunity? If that's the case, many of the direct-damage wall spells will serve that purpose.
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2010-10-27 at 08:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    There was a time when the 'evil' guy was going down an elevator that had a wall of force around it. No one could get to him so he basically ran down the stairs following him. I was a Cleric of Incarnum at the time so I used my ability to burn all my turn attempts to empower a wall of incarnum. Then I cast it sideways so the guy had to make a save every 5ft. He went insane. Wall of incarnum is now my favorite spell.
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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Demons_eye View Post
    There was a time when the 'evil' guy was going down an elevator that had a wall of force around it. No one could get to him so he basically ran down the stairs following him. I was a Cleric of Incarnum at the time so I used my ability to burn all my turn attempts to empower a wall of incarnum. Then I cast it sideways so the guy had to make a save every 5ft. He went insane. Wall of incarnum is now my favorite spell.
    If he was surrounded by a Wall of Force, how'd you get line of effect to him to cast the spell? I haven't read Wall of Incarnum... does it have a clause about only needing line-of-sight or some such?
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Wall spells make good combos with the Magic Jar spell. You use a round to seal yourself in with a wall around you, then use the magic jar spell to possess someone. They're not able to get to your body to kill you so you'll likely be able to return, plus the gem that is still on your 'corpse' is next to impossible to break.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    By any chance does said construct also have magic immunity? If that's the case, many of the direct-damage wall spells will serve that purpose.
    I have both a Junk Golem and a Brass Man, Brass has fire immunity, Junk has magic immunity =]

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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Oh, excellent. At higher levels, also consider prismatic wall. Golems with magic immunity can walk right through that one as well.
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  21. - Top - End - #21
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Last session I DM'd, I think I used multiple Wall of Stones pretty effectively:

    The party was attacking a dwarven carriage carrying a nobleman. His escorts were two earth-themed wizards and a deepstone sentinel. When attacked, the two wizards busted out scrolls of Wall of Stone to cut off attack from three sides in the first round with the help of the sentinel, which used White Raven's Tactics to get the third wall (actually a Major Image for an escape route) up. The sentinel then planted himself at the front of the only entrance and eventually enlarged himself (belt of growth) to fully block it off.

    Of course I didn't take into account my party's dispel magic spam to bring those walls immediately down, but I was pretty happy with the tactic overall.

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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Wall of Stone is an instantaneous conjouration. Once its there, there is nothing magical about it, so you can't dispel it. The Major Image could be dispelled, but not the actual walls.
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  23. - Top - End - #23
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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Woops. That knowledge would've made my planned out strategy more resilient.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dralnu View Post
    Woops. That knowledge would've made my planned out strategy more resilient.
    You can always let the players assume the previous walls were illusions next time the situation arises.

    Is there any spell that the Spell Sculpt feat can be used to benefit?

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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lev View Post
    Is there any spell that the Spell Sculpt feat can be used to benefit?
    Sculpt spell requires that the base spell be an area spell - the Wall spells are, to my knowledge, all Effect spells, and not subject to Sculpting in that manner.

    Mind you, if you're not keen on Wall spells, there's a LOT of spells that Sculpt Spell is good for - starting at Grease.
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2010-10-28 at 08:56 PM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    I prefer wall of force. Almost nothing short of teleportation can breach it, and even if one foe can teleport I doubt all of them can. Even works against anti-magic fields. No save even if you drop it within reach of a foe (unlike wall of stone). No SR. Very large area too, for more blockage. Only some casters prepare disintegrate (if your foe is a caster at all) and disjunction is 8 CRs away.

    It's also dismissable but I don't think that's a big deal on walls. Once you kill half your foes you have all the time you need to chip away at any wall. Yeah basic strategy on any wall is to divide the fight into two much easier fights. So right down the middle of your enemies will do. Pre-emptively blocking off side passages works too if you have nothing better to do.

    Even though wall of force is best at wall-iness, I did have a caster with both wall of stone and wall of force. Wall of stone can make bridges and battlements. Likewise other walls have various random advantages.
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  27. - Top - End - #27
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Sculpt spell requires that the base spell be an area spell - the Wall spells are, to my knowledge, all Effect spells, and not subject to Sculpting in that manner.

    Mind you, if you're not keen on Wall spells, there's a LOT of spells that Sculpt Spell is good for - starting at Grease.
    Yeah I was really liking the combination of Grease and Cloudy Conjuration, or Drown (BoVD) and Cloudy Conjuration as they both conjure nice imagery and serve as a large psychological and mechanical advantage.

  28. - Top - End - #28
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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    The problem with Wall of Force is that it must be vertical and in only one plane. That means that you can't wrap it around someone, and you need anchor points to keep people from just walking around it. While walking around it might buy you 1-2 rounds, thats hardly worth a standard action and a 5th level spell. If you cast it in say...a tunnel, things with a burrow speed or such could still get around it. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so using Wall of Force in such a situation is just as effective and easy to circumvent as Wall of Stone. Its either as good as Wall of Stone, or as bad as Wall of Stone, but much much much less customizable.

    Yea, its an absolute stop that is nearly impossible to penetrate, but in terms of shear usefulness, it has nothing on Wall of Stone or Wall of Thorns.
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2010-10-28 at 09:39 PM.
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  29. - Top - End - #29
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    What about Ironguard (Lesser) in combination with Wall of Iron?

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    Default Re: Wall Stacking (No Place To Go!)

    Certain impassable walls like Wall of Stone can be formed on the same square a creature occupies to force it make a Ref save vs entrapment. A successful save puts them on the side of the wall of their choosing. This is only for direct attacks for the wall, you can have a wall rise up on all the squares around them without a problem, no save.

    Then use a second casting to fill the enclosed space with a second wall of stone. They can't go anywhere to get out, so they should not be allowed a Ref save. Instant suck.

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