Hobgoblin LA +1?

[Scarey Nerd]

Hobgoblins get 60ft Darkvision, +4 Move Silently, +2 Dex and +2 Con.

Does that really warrant a +1 LA? It seems huge to me. I'm assuming it's a perfect example of WotC overestimating the worth of an ability adjustment?

[WinWin]

I agree. WoTC has a history of bigotry against the greenskinned races. It's about time people stood up to them.

[LOTRfan]

Yeah..... the LA +1 seems a bit much. I no some people who just ignore it. I know someone made a variant Hobgoblin in the Homebrew section that made them more acceptable as an LA +1 race.

[Yora]

I don't know of a single race that would become overpowered if its LA is reduced by 1. (This doesn't include races that are already overpowered to begin with. )

[LOTRfan]

This thread has a bunch of Hobgoblin variants to fill the LA +1.

[Amphetryon]

Frank & K's Races of War makes Hobgoblins and a couple of other options LA+0 instead of +1, if memory serves.

[dsmiles]

+1 is a definite overestimate of the hobbo-gobbo's worth as a PC. I'd go with +0 myself. I mean seriously, just because it doesn't have any penalties to it's ability socres? Yes, that is what it's based on, according to the SS. "Ability bonuses with no ability penalties = +1 LA." Dumb.

[Scarey Nerd]

+1 is a definite overestimate of the hobbo-gobbo's worth as a PC. I'd go with +0 myself. I mean seriously, just because it doesn't have any penalties to it's ability socres? Yes, that is what it's based on, according to the SS. "Ability bonuses with no ability penalties = +1 LA." Dumb.

It seems that half of Wizards of the Coast make the rules, the other half write the books, with very little communication between the two halves

I agree that +0 would be far more reasonable, or possibly fill them out to +1 so that they are better than normal Goblins.

[RelentlessImp]

Show your DM Lolth-Touched (MMIV) and ask him/her if hobgoblin is anywhere remotely near that.
Or Half-Minotaur.
Or Half-Ogre.
Or Goliath.

Most DMs I know just say "Hobgoblins are LA +0, as are Blues".

[Iku Rex]

(Hobgoblins were +0 in 3.0.)

[Jack Zander]

I feel like hobgoblins are LA +0.5. Compared to any of the other races in the Player's Handbook, they are clearly a superior choice, except for maybe a feat-starved build that needs to be human. There really is little reason to ever play a dwarf or an elf over a hobgoblin.

[Beelzebub1111]

IMO: Hobgoblins are a little too good for +0 but not good enough for +1. Give 'em some situational war-based or tactical abilities. an extra +1 or +2 to hit when flanking. +2 (non cumulative) dodge bonus to AC when adjacent to another hobgoblin, No penalty to AC when charging. One or two of those should do the trick. Maybe add a +2 bonus to some skill, intimidate or ride or something.

[RelentlessImp]

+2 (non cumulative) dodge bonus

Let's not make Warrior-types worse by setting a precedent in which a bonus that always stacks, even with its own type, stops stacking with other bonuses of its type.

[Beelzebub1111]

Let's not make Warrior-types worse by setting a precedent in which a bonus that always stacks, even with its own type, stops stacking with other bonuses of its type.

I'm saying that he can't surround himself with 8 other hobgoblins and get a +16 dodge bonus. it would count as getting multiple bonuses from the same source (even if the types stack), I was just clarifying that.

[Iku Rex]

There really is little reason to ever play a dwarf or an elf over a hobgoblin.

Dwarf vs Hobgoblin

Both have +2 Con and Darkvision. The dwarf -2 Cha is not very important. Full movement in armor or encumbered more than makes up for the dwarf's 20' speed IMO.

Hobgoblin has +2 Dex and +4 move silently.

Dwarf has stonecunning, weapon familiarity, stability, +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, spells and spell-like effects, +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids, +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type, +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items and +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.

I see several reasons to play a dwarf over a hobgoblin. Dwarves are not obviously inferior.

[dsmiles]

Dwarves are not obviously inferior.

True. Usually, a race choice for me is based more on what story I want to tell anyways. Ability bonuses and penalties don't normally come into play when I make my choice of race and class. Yes, I'd play a Dwarven sorcerer, -2 CHA and all, if that was the story I wanted to tell.

[Runestar]

Hey, we are already having +0LA versions of planetouched...

Does that really warrant a +1 LA? It seems huge to me. I'm assuming it's a perfect example of WotC overestimating the worth of an ability adjustment?

More like they deemed it too strong to be LA+0, so they rounded up to LA+1.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Hey, we are already having +0LA versions of planetouched...

In terms of ability adjustments, the Whisper Gnome [RoS] has -2 Str and -2 Cha relative to the Hobgoblin, as does the Dragonborn Air Goblin [RotD + SRD]. The Lesser Chaond (PGtF + MM2) has +2 Dex and -2 Cha relative to the Hobgoblin, while a Dragonborn Lesser Chaond would have +2 Con and -2 Cha. Similarly, a Dragonborn Lesser Wispling (RotD + PGtF + FF) would have +2 Int and -2 Str relative to the Hobgoblin. Those are the ways I can find to get +2 Dex and +2 Con at LA +0.

In short, lesser planetouched are overpowered, http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...st_Version_2.0 is useful, and wikipedia is the most comprehensive source on planetouched I could find.

If you open up Dragon Magazine templates such as the oft-cited Magic-Blooded, the Arctic variant gives +2 Con and -2 Cha, which enables many LA +0 things resembling the Hobgoblin.

[true_shinken]

Hey, we are already having +0LA versions of planetouched...

People ignore that those +0LA versions of planetouched are a DM's call (specifically called as such on Player's Guide to Faerun - either all tieflings are lesses tiefling or there are no leser tieflings), only written for aasimar/tiefling and they have all disadvantages of being an outsider with no advantages. They are harder to ressurrect, they are affected by Protection/Magic Circle spells as well as the Charm Person/Dominate Person thing. Since you're getting extra power from added weaknesses, it's basically attaching a sign to your back that says 'screw with me, DM'. YMMV.

[Runestar]

People ignore that those +0LA versions of planetouched are a DM's call (specifically called as such on Player's Guide to Faerun - either all tieflings are lesses tiefling or there are no leser tieflings), only written for aasimar/tiefling and they have all disadvantages of being an outsider with no advantages.

Well, I am pretty sure they extend to the elemental planetouched as well. Depending on how you interpret it, this LA+0 variant may even extend to fey'ri (which are normally LA+2 or +3!).

In addition, I believe you can combine lesser planetouched with the celestial-attended birth option (champions of valour) to take otherworldly at 1st lv to become an outsider again. So you are effectively trading your 1st lv feat to do away with that +1LA (oh, and a small boost to diplomacy).

[Foryn Gilnith]

People ignore that those +0LA versions of planetouched are a DM's call

As are sourcebooks in general, as well as the concept of prestige classes. If a DM is going to disallow lesser planetouched, balance is a much more pressing issue than the book's reminder that Rule 0 exists.

They are harder to ressurrect

How so? Lesser planetouched are susceptible to spells and effects that specifically target outsiders, yes. "Being harder to ressurect" does not specifically target outsiders, and if it did, counting it as an effect would make it vulnerable to Iron Heart Surge.

only written for aasimar/tiefling

Nothing in the books suggests this.

they are affected by Protection/Magic Circle spells

Nothing in those spell descriptions talks about outsiders. Nothing in banishment, the example spell in PGtF, talks about outsiders either.

[dsmiles]

Well, I am pretty sure they extend to the elemental planetouched as well. Depending on how you interpret it, this LA+0 variant may even extend to fey'ri (which are normally LA+2 or +3!).

In addition, I believe you can combine lesser planetouched with the celestial-attended birth option (champions of valour) to take otherworldly at 1st lv to become an outsider again. So you are effectively trading your 1st lv feat to do away with that +1LA (oh, and a small boost to diplomacy).

Ew. I think I'd rather suck up the +1 LA.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Ew. I think I'd rather suck up the +1 LA.

Hey, people take Otherworldly as normal LA +0 races to be Outsiders [usually for Alter Self]. If it's an appealing trade as a normal LA +0 race that shouldn't change too much as a lesser planetouched. Although, depending on the properties of the (planetouched) subtype, you might still be vulnerable to Charm Person [and you probably should be if you're going to be using polymorph spells and lesser planetouched].

[dsmiles]

Hey, people take Otherworldly as normal LA +0 races to be Outsiders [usually for Alter Self]. If it's an appealing trade as a normal LA +0 race that shouldn't change too much as a lesser planetouched. Although, depending on the properties of the (planetouched) subtype, you might still be vulnerable to Charm Person [and you probably should be if you're going to be using polymorph spells and lesser planetouched].

I'd probably do it as a human, or something else with a bonus feat, but with only one feat, I don't think I would.

[Psyren]

Doesn't the Giant make a joke about them being +1 LA in SoD?

[SensFan]

In my homebrewed setting, Hobgoblins are LA +0. The fact they might be mechanically 'better' than some other races is balanced by the fact there is still somewhat of a prejudice against them in the setting.

I don't know if I can explain more clearly under the forum rules, but think Remember the Titans.

[true_shinken]

As are sourcebooks in general, as well as the concept of prestige classes. If a DM is going to disallow lesser planetouched, balance is a much more pressing issue than the book's reminder that Rule 0 exists.

Do you own Player's Guide to Faerun? It looks like you never read that part.
Lesser races are NOT a player choice. It's specifically written to say 'the DM chooses if in his world there are tieflings or lesser tieflings, either one or the other'. It is NOT a reference to rule zero, it's a reference to in-game consistency.

How so? Lesser planetouched are susceptible to spells and effects that specifically target outsiders, yes. "Being harder to ressurect" does not specifically target outsiders, and if it did, counting it as an effect would make it vulnerable to Iron Heart Surge.

Your argument had a point until you started using the broken wording of IHS to support it.

Nothing in the books suggests this.

Maybe the fact there are ONLY lesser tiefling and lesser aasimar listed? There is no 'lesser planetouched' template to be applied, people just extrapolated it from the lesser aasimar/tiefling in PgTF.
Now that I think about it, maybe there are stats for lesser genasi as well, but I forget.

Nothing in those spell descriptions talks about outsiders. Nothing in banishment, the example spell in PGtF, talks about outsiders either.

It mentions extraplanar creatures, which outsiders are, except those with the native subtype.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Do you own Player's Guide to Faerun?

Yes?

Lesser races are NOT a player choice.

Prestige classes are NOT a player choice. Their inclusion or exclusion in the campaign is "always under the purview of the DM", as the DMG says. The entire book is not a player choice, despite the title - it opens up with "HOW TO USE THIS BOOK IN YOUR CAMPAIGN", wording extremely similar to the wording in the Lesser Versions section.

Your argument had a point until you started using the broken wording of IHS to support it.

"How so? Lesser planetouched are susceptible to spells and effects that specifically target outsiders, yes. "Being harder to ressurect" does not specifically target outsiders."
Is that better? Taking out the passing reference to Iron Heart Surge doesn't change anything. It doesn't SUPPORT anything.

Maybe the fact there are ONLY lesser tiefling and lesser aasimar listed? There is no 'lesser planetouched' template to be applied, people just extrapolated it from the lesser aasimar/tiefling in PgTF.

Which page are lesser tiefling and lesser aasimar listed on? Because I don't see them on page 190 or page 191. There is, in fact, a guideline to follow when creating Lesser Planetouched.

LESSER PLANETOUCHED
All lesser planetouched have the following racial trait in common, in addition to all the racial traits detailed elsewhere in this book.

"All the racial traits detailed elsewhere in this book" would seem to be a limiting qualifier, but tiefling and aasimar are not detailed elsewhere in the book save for a brief mention on page 27 (along with genasi). That's a fairly tenuous link, and a fairly liberal definition of "
Scratch that, I looked up the definition of "detail". Lesser planetouched are indeed confined to aasimars, tieflings, and genasi, (see page 27) if the "explain in detail" definition isn't used (and if said definition was used, lesser planetouched wouldn't exist, since no planetouched are detailed in the book). My bad.

It mentions extraplanar creatures, which outsiders are, except those with the native subtype.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Extraplanar_Subtype
Outsiders are very frequently not extraplanar.

[true_shinken]

Prestige classes are NOT a player choice. Their inclusion or exclusion in the campaign is "always under the purview of the DM", as the DMG says. The entire book is not a player choice, despite the title - it opens up with "HOW TO USE THIS BOOK IN YOUR CAMPAIGN", wording extremely similar to the wording in the Lesser Versions section.

And so what? Makes no difference whatsoever, it's strictly a DM call either way. I can't see how agreeing with me is your argument against my point.

"How so? Lesser planetouched are susceptible to spells and effects that specifically target outsiders, yes. "Being harder to ressurect" does not specifically target outsiders."
Is that better? Taking out the passing reference to Iron Heart Surge doesn't change anything. It doesn't SUPPORT anything.

I'll concede that.

Scratch that, I looked up the definition of "detail". Lesser planetouched are indeed confined to aasimars, tieflings, and genasi, (see page 27) if the "explain in detail" definition isn't used (and if said definition was used, lesser planetouched wouldn't exist, since no planetouched are detailed in the book). My bad.

It happens, I myself got confused about it at first.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Extraplanar_Subtype
Outsiders are very frequently not extraplanar.

"A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane."
If an outsider does not have the native subtype, they are extraplanar.

[Cieyrin]

I'm saying that he can't surround himself with 8 other hobgoblins and get a +16 dodge bonus. it would count as getting multiple bonuses from the same source (even if the types stack), I was just clarifying that.

Why not just change it to a racial bonus, then?