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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    PirateGuy

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    Default (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Right now, the party I'm DMing for consists of only three people: a Fighter, a Rogue, and a Warlock. (all level 10) In order to give the party a bit more meat to it, I've decided to give them a DMPC.

    One of the party members came up with the idea for a dog DMPC, much like Dogmeat from the Fallout series or the Mabari hound from Dragon Age. This would also get around some of the in-game problems with DMPC's, like the DMPC knowing the whole plot or taking up too much of the spotlight, etc.

    But I'm having trouble actually building the character. Here's what I have so far:

    Level 10.
    Counts as a Longtooth Shifter for mechanical purposes.
    Class is a Hybrid Fighter/Druid, basically in perma-Beast Shape.
    Its Bite counts as a houseruled weapon which deals 1d8 damage, so it can make use of Weapon keyword powers.
    It doesn't technically have any equipment for in-game purposes. However, mechanically speaking only, it will have stat boosts equivelent to a +3 weapon, +3 armor, and +3 amulet, which is standard for the party right now.

    Any suggestions as far as powers/feats? Or should I do something differently?

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    I think you need a healbot rather than meat. Sure, the Rogue and the Warlock can be a little squishy, but soaking up damage is half the Fighter's job, and he's got no one to keep his HP topped off. I recommend a Pacifist Cleric (Divine Power) or TacLord (especially the LazyLord). Party buffs, providing extra attacks for the PCs, debuffing enemies, dishing out lots of healing, it's everything a DMPC should be.

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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    They have rules for adding an extra character in the DMG2 if you have a copy. The rules are great as the extra pc, played by either the dm or one of the players plugs the gap without getting the spot light. I would highly recomend that route, it works for me. Very sim[ple character, very simple for the players to control as an extra character while the dm concentrates on the monsters.
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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    I think you need a healbot rather than meat. Sure, the Rogue and the Warlock can be a little squishy, but soaking up damage is half the Fighter's job, and he's got no one to keep his HP topped off. I recommend a Pacifist Cleric (Divine Power) or TacLord (especially the LazyLord). Party buffs, providing extra attacks for the PCs, debuffing enemies, dishing out lots of healing, it's everything a DMPC should be.
    LazyLord? I don't know that build.
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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmiles View Post
    LazyLord? I don't know that build.
    Essentially, it's the Tactical Warlord taken to the extreme: He rarely ever makes attacks himself, relying on everyone else to do the job for him. Works best with characters that have good MBAs: Barbarians, TWF Rangers, Fighters, Essentials melee characters so far, etc.

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    Essentially, it's the Tactical Warlord taken to the extreme: He rarely ever makes attacks himself, relying on everyone else to do the job for him. Works best with characters that have good MBAs: Barbarians, TWF Rangers, Fighters, Essentials melee characters so far, etc.
    Huh. I probably never would have thought of playing that way. Buff the party, stand back and...MOAR BUFFS! I can see that working.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmiles View Post
    Huh. I probably never would have thought of playing that way. Buff the party, stand back and...MOAR BUFFS! I can see that working.
    Actually, that's the Pacifist Cleric. The LazyLord is "Punch this guy for me. Now this guy. And this guy. Oh, and gain a bonus when you're doing that."

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    What your party needs is probably a Lazylord/Pacifist Cleric, but either would be tricky to have as a dog. You do lack a controller, though, so what about a straight Druid? I've played in a campaign where the druid just pretended to be a dog all the time, and it actually worked pretty well. The Fighter party isn't too necessary since they already have a defender. If you want to hybrid the druid with a defender, might I suggest the battlemind? Better attribute synergy, and they can use the battlemind's demand while in animal form.
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    Gralamin's Avatar

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Why Bother with character builds? Stat it out as a monster, with perhaps a few extra benefits (An Inspiring bark that allows it to act as a healer). It will be easier for you to run, require no loot, and will be far easier to customize. Leveling will be quick as well, though approximately every 5 levels you would have to make a more advanced version from scratch.

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Yeah, custom soldier or brute, let him give a bonus to out of combat use of healing surges, (on account of being a cuddly engine of death), and maybe a bonus to various things for folks fighting within a few squares of him.

    That's what I'd do to add a Dogmeat / Mabari npc, anyway. I wouldn't go for the Lazylord or anything, because it's just an entirely different character.

    If the PC's need more healing, just give them a decent supply of potions as loot, of introduce a nice and scrawny preist of an npc (likewise, ignore pc stats, just give it the powers that make sense, even if that means nicking them from PC's.

    If you keep it built as an NPC, you have the benefit of the balancing being easier, as iirc, you just count off the NPC's points value exactly as extra budget for encounters they are in, (rather than doing any funky multiplying like you would for extra actual PC's).

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Quote Originally Posted by Gralamin View Post
    (An Inspiring bark that allows it to act as a healer).
    I was actually thinking that, flavor-wise, the dog could just lick the wounds of the injure to heal them. I see no reason why a LazyLord wouldn't work as a dog... the dog just dashes in to distract the enemy while the Fighter gets a free swing. It could work.
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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    They're surprisingly good on healing.

    It helps that among the NPC's helping them out is a pair of Eladrin ritualists who brew X amount of healing potions for them every time they go back to HQ.

    A healer would be best for the party, but I've already offered them a Bard DMPC whom they promptly rejected and asked for the puppy.

    The only problem with a straight Druid is that then some of the class features (and one of the At-Wills) have to be from the Nature-mancy side of the Druid rather than the Wild Shape part, the latter of which would actually make sense for an actual animal.

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscipleofBob View Post
    The only problem with a straight Druid is that then some of the class features (and one of the At-Wills) have to be from the Nature-mancy side of the Druid rather than the Wild Shape part, the latter of which would actually make sense for an actual animal.
    The same is true for the Fighter half though, since the dog can't use Fighter powers while in "beast form". I'd just have the dog forget about the naturey at-will (or even houserule it out). You can take all beast form encounter and daily powers and still be a fine character, if a little weaker than the top controllers. There aren't any class features that would be restricted besides wildshape itself.
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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    The same is true for the Fighter half though, since the dog can't use Fighter powers while in "beast form". I'd just have the dog forget about the naturey at-will (or even houserule it out). You can take all beast form encounter and daily powers and still be a fine character, if a little weaker than the top controllers. There aren't any class features that would be restricted besides wildshape itself.
    True, the houserule works both ways though. I can houserule that the Fighter powers can work while in Beast Form and it wouldn't be too much of a stretch.

    I could just do straight Druid, though it would be more difficult to implement via Character Builder.

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    You're really making a lot of work for yourself that you don't need. The Monster Builder is by far the most appropriate way to go about this. You don't want a creature with a range of powers and options like a player, you want a simple, effective NPC build. Brute or Soldier, it handles all the maths, you just fill in the blanks. Hell, even simpler just edit-a-copy of an existing appropriate Hound-type Monster. Five minute job and exponentially truer to the feeling of Dogmeat than any PC character op-fu.

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    You're really making a lot of work for yourself that you don't need. The Monster Builder is by far the most appropriate way to go about this. You don't want a creature with a range of powers and options like a player, you want a simple, effective NPC build. Brute or Soldier, it handles all the maths, you just fill in the blanks. Hell, even simpler just edit-a-copy of an existing appropriate Hound-type Monster. Five minute job and exponentially truer to the feeling of Dogmeat than any PC character op-fu.
    QFT.

    My Players seem to be awash with NPC aides and I've always built them off of Monster Builder. Not only is this far easier, but it helps keep the NPCs from becoming driving forces in the story: without Utility powers or even full skill lists, they can't actually "do" much on their own; instead they can act as foils for the PCs and provide IC advice that - while useful - isn't taking die rolls away from the Players.

    Of course, I make mine far less durable (i.e. 1 Surge, dead at 0 HP) but I'm thinking of revising these house rules slightly since the Players are actually willing (unprompted!) to raise one from the dead; no small feat when they're only LV 3.
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    Essentially, it's the Tactical Warlord taken to the extreme: He rarely ever makes attacks himself, relying on everyone else to do the job for him.
    No, he never mkaes attacks himself

    It is viable for a warlord to put an 8 in strength and a 20 in intelligence. With recent Dragon articles, they have enough powers so that they never do anything themselves. This is commonly fluffed as e.g. a cheerleader, and is hilarious in play.
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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    You're really making a lot of work for yourself that you don't need. The Monster Builder is by far the most appropriate way to go about this. You don't want a creature with a range of powers and options like a player, you want a simple, effective NPC build. Brute or Soldier, it handles all the maths, you just fill in the blanks. Hell, even simpler just edit-a-copy of an existing appropriate Hound-type Monster. Five minute job and exponentially truer to the feeling of Dogmeat than any PC character op-fu.
    I disagree with this attitude. The whole point of introducing a DMPC is to fill a role the party lacks. Monsters aren't balanced to fill roles. They aren't even balanced to hit/damage other monsters, they're meant to fight PCs. Assuming that you'll get a balanced ally out of a monster is a very dubious assumption.
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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    It's rarely a good idea to insert a full DMPC, reguardless of whats actually missing. If nothing else, simply the greater amount of options a PC build has means that the DM will be taking longer each time looking over their own DMPC rather than getting on with stuff. Alternatively, you give the sheet to a player, and now one of the Players has two characters they need to keep track of.

    Keeping the character as a Monster means freeing yourself from all the extra guff player characters bring along, including the need for appropriate gear, the need to juggle a library of powers, and so on, and so forth.

    If you're worried about the Monster having too high HP, or Attack Value, or doing too much or too little damage, it's a snap to change in the Monster Builder, and you can balance the creature at whatever level pleases you. You have the entire edition worth of monster powers to select inspiration from in designing the creature, and anything you can come up with also. It would be trivial to balance this Dogmeat npc (And Dogmeat really does make more sense as an NPC than a full 'DMPC', having player several fallout games), similar to a fighter, say with a small defensive or healing-aiding-aura to keep those fighting near to him in better nick. If it's the numbers you are concerned about, simply type in the ones you prefer.

    You end up with a more accurately 'Dogmeat' character, who is easier and quicker to run, and keep the important seperation in mind between an NPC accompanying and aiding the PC's and 'My PC'.

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    It's rarely a good idea to insert a full DMPC, reguardless of whats actually missing. If nothing else, simply the greater amount of options a PC build has means that the DM will be taking longer each time looking over their own DMPC rather than getting on with stuff. Alternatively, you give the sheet to a player, and now one of the Players has two characters they need to keep track of.

    Keeping the character as a Monster means freeing yourself from all the extra guff player characters bring along, including the need for appropriate gear, the need to juggle a library of powers, and so on, and so forth.

    If you're worried about the Monster having too high HP, or Attack Value, or doing too much or too little damage, it's a snap to change in the Monster Builder, and you can balance the creature at whatever level pleases you. You have the entire edition worth of monster powers to select inspiration from in designing the creature, and anything you can come up with also. It would be trivial to balance this Dogmeat npc (And Dogmeat really does make more sense as an NPC than a full 'DMPC', having player several fallout games), similar to a fighter, say with a small defensive or healing-aiding-aura to keep those fighting near to him in better nick. If it's the numbers you are concerned about, simply type in the ones you prefer.

    You end up with a more accurately 'Dogmeat' character, who is easier and quicker to run, and keep the important seperation in mind between an NPC accompanying and aiding the PC's and 'My PC'.
    It doesn't sound like balancing a monster would be any easier than just making a DMPC using the rules in the DMG2
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    It is viable for a warlord to put an 8 in strength and a 20 in intelligence. With recent Dragon articles, they have enough powers so that they never do anything themselves. This is commonly fluffed as e.g. a cheerleader, and is hilarious in play.
    Next time I join a 4e game, I am going to play a cheerleader. There is no other option. I can't swing a sword, I can't fight, but I can execute inspirational moves like no one else.

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    Next time I join a 4e game, I am going to play a cheerleader. There is no other option. I can't swing a sword, I can't fight, but I can execute inspirational moves like no one else.
    I played a cheerleader exactly one time. I took it to a convention and got stuck in a group with no other melee characters. It's never a good thing when you are giving a free melee basic attack to a Wizard. It was terrible. Of course, that was just my bad luck. The character would work really well if you had a Fighter and Ranger or Barbarian.
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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    It doesn't sound like balancing a monster would be any easier than just making a DMPC using the rules in the DMG2
    I didn't think the above was proposing using the rules in the DMG2. You still if I remember correctly, end up with an NPC, though, so I'd endorse that method. Sadly the Monster Builder doesn't really have any built in template / etc support, but you could still follow the class-based NPC rules using it, just popping it in by hand.

    I may have over-complicated things in my above post, perhaps. Personally I believe it should be easy, because all you'd need to do is type 'Hound' into the search field, pick something that looks about right, and change the name. If you're feeling in-depth, file off the damage types or even knock the level up or down one or two. (It'll do all the related math for you).

    Two good Dogmeat options; Charnel Hound and Hound of Yeenoghu

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    Dogmeat 2 Level 10 Brute
    Medium natural beast XP 500
    HP 130; Bloodied 65
    AC 24; Fortitude 26; Reflex 23; Will 22
    Speed 8
    Initiative +8
    Perception +14
    Darkvision
    Traits
    Ravenous Charge
    When the hound charges a bloodied enemy, its movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.
    Pack Attack
    Dogmeat deals an extra 5 damage on melee attacks against an enemy that has two or more of the hound’s allies adjacent to it.
    Blood Scent
    Dogmeat remembers the taste of the blood of any creature it has ever bitten, even once. It gains a +10 bonus to Perception checks to detect or track such a creature.
    Standard Actions
    m Bite • At-Will
    Attack: +13 vs. AC
    Hit: 2d8 + 6 damage, and the target is knocked prone.
    Minor Actions
    M Savage Rend • At-Will
    Attack: +11 vs. Fortitude
    Hit: 1d8 + 5 damage, and the target cannot stand until the end of its next turn.
    Triggered Actions
    M Blood-Hunter • At-Will
    Trigger: When an enemy within 6 squares is bloodied.
    Effect (Immediate Reaction): The hound charges the bloodied enemy.
    Str 22 (+11) Dex 17 (+8) Wis 18 (+9)
    Con 20 (+10) Int 5 (+2) Cha 12 (+6)
    Alignment unaligned*****Languages Abyssal

    © 2010 Wizards of the Coast LLC, a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All rights reserved. This formatted statistics block has been generated using the D&D Adventure Tools.


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    Dogmeat Level 10 Brute
    Medium natural beast XP 500
    HP 127; Bloodied 64
    AC 24; Fortitude 24; Reflex 23; Will 21
    Speed 8
    Initiative +8
    Perception +7
    Darkvision
    Traits
    O Inspire Fear (fear) • Aura 5
    Any enemy that starts its turn within the aura takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of its next turn.
    Opportunistic
    Dogmeat scores a critical hit on a roll of 18–20 and deals 2d8 extra damage against prone targets.
    Standard Actions
    m Gaping Maw (necrotic) • At-Will
    Attack: +13 vs. AC
    Hit: 2d8 + 9 damage, and ongoing 10 damage (save ends), and the target is knocked prone.
    M Doom Claws (necrotic) • At-Will
    Attack: The charnel hound makes two attacks; +11 vs. AC
    Hit: 2d8 + 6 damage each. If both attacks hit the same target, the charnel hound makes a gaping maw attack against the target.
    Triggered Actions
    Assimilation (healing, necrotic) • At-Will
    Trigger: When a creature is reduced to 0 hp by Dogmeat.
    Attack (Free): (Targets the triggering creature); +11 vs. Fortitude
    Hit: 2d8 + 5 the target loses a healing surge, and the charnel hound regains 79 hit points.
    Str 21 (+10) Dex 16 (+8) Wis 15 (+7)
    Con 17 (+8) Int 3 (+1) Cha 17 (+8)
    Alignment unaligned*****Languages —

    © 2010 Wizards of the Coast LLC, a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All rights reserved. This formatted statistics block has been generated using the D&D Adventure Tools.

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    Default Re: (4e) Need Advice on Build for DMPC: Dogmeat

    Quote Originally Posted by tcrudisi View Post
    I played a cheerleader exactly one time. I took it to a convention and got stuck in a group with no other melee characters.
    Yeah, that's no fun. But it sounds pretty rare to have a group with no melee guys.

    But then there's still hilarious little powers like Friendly Fire (encounter interrupt: an enemy who misses with a ranged attack gets to reroll it against one of his allies )
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