Have You Ever Gone Too Far?

[Aidan305]

This is primarily a question towards GMs, but I suppose that it can be answered by others as well.

I was sitting down for lunch this afternoon working on my notes for a quest my players are undertaking. I had originally planned it to be something, that was, in hindsight, poorly set up and would be pretty stupid. Unfortunately, I had a better idea last night on how to go through with it. I say unfortunately, because I'm worried that the themes it contains and the imagery might just be going a little too far. The ideas going through my head concerning it actually ended up putting me off my lunch, and I was on the verge of tears as I wrote out some of the segments of information I would be presenting to my players. I'm still not sure I want to run this adventure this way, simply because I myself was so upset by it in the process of writing it.

So my question to the Playground is this: Have you ever written an adventure that you think went a little too far? Something deeply upsetting or horrifying that you felt hit a little to close to home or pushed buttons that shouldn't be pushed?

[Urpriest]

One adventure wasn't even all that disturbing, but it still caused the players to give me weird looks. They were in a dungeon that had inscriptions on the walls presenting the history of several lizardfolk races that had been corrupted by black dragons. The founder was originally a lizardfolk who became a troglodyte by committing the first ritual sacrifice on the suggestion of a manipulative black dragon goddess. Said troglodyte led his followers off into the jungle, and eventually took a wife from among his minions. The goddess became jealous and polymorphed into a male lizardfolk and seduced the troglodyte's wife. As a result the wife died in childbirth and the first half-dragons were born.

The players all found this very creepy. Well, the ones who could read the inscriptions anyway. The paladin, fortunately, couldn't.

[true_shinken]

The players all found this very creepy. Well, the ones who could read the inscriptions anyway. The paladin, fortunately, couldn't.

It is kinda creepy, you know.

I'm still not sure I want to run this adventure this way, simply because I myself was so upset by it in the process of writing it.

Dude, now I'm curious. What is it about?

[Aidan305]

Dude, now I'm curious. What is it about?

It's a hook for another part of the same adventure. It's about the ghost of a small girl who was driven mad, tortured and brutally murdered.

[Urpriest]

It's a hook for another part of the same adventure. It's about the ghost of a small girl who was driven mad, tortured and brutally murdered.

I assume the little girl was tortured/etc., not the ghost.

Although that would be an interesting subversion...

[Boci]

It's a hook for another part of the same adventure. It's about the ghost of a small girl who was driven mad, tortured and brutally murdered.

You can always imply without grusome details. Is the ghost ever sane enough to ever say "They broke my mind with metal tools and weeks of labour" or is there an NPC who could inform them?

[Aidan305]

You can always imply without grusome details. Is the ghost ever sane enough to ever say "They broke my mind with metal tools and weeks of labour" or is there an NPC who could inform them?

Not really. As a ghost she's constantly reliving the worst moments of the end of her life. The players will be getting there information about what's been going on from the flashbacks they get should they touch her. (Not that I'm expecting them to, or even know what she is at first)

I could ease up on it all, but I'm also not certain if I should. Sadly, little Alyss has somehow managed to develop as a fully fleshed character, complete with personality and backstory both her her and for Mr Dragon, her wooden toy dragon. And the players have never met her.

I assume the little girl was tortured/etc., not the ghost.

Although that would be an interesting subversion...

It would indeed. (Notes down idea)

[Hat-Trick]

Hey, you could use her as a reaccuring NPC depending on outcome! hopefully, unbreaking the woobie as well.

[Beelzebub1111]

I've been deliberately avoiding going to far. Keeping the adventures light and high on pulpy adventure. For the express purpose of causing extreme mood whiplash when I run "And Madness Followed"

[Drakevarg]

Not yet. Then again, I don't consider it possible to go "too far." Traumatized players mean I'm doing my job right.

Although, there is one revelation still in waiting that could dramatically alter the dynamics of the party's relationship with the Big Bad, depending on how they took it. One of the party members is already well aware that she's the Big Bad's daughter (and idolizes him, much to my irritation), but she still doesn't know exactly what's evolved from that...

[Aidan305]

I've been deliberately avoiding going to far. Keeping the adventures light and high on pulpy adventure. For the express purpose of causing extreme mood whiplash when I run "And Madness Followed"

I tend to as well, something like this is very out of character for me. My most recent scenario was Shadows Over Pontypandy, a crossover between Fireman Sam and the Mythos.

[Halae]

I once had a "Descent Into Darkness" type of session. the party was following a young man who was running away from his noble parents in a bid for an uncontrolled life so that they could bring him back. anyways, I had him realize he was being pursued, so he found a small ruin to hide in, making the players go in after him. Only, under the first floor, the place got bigger. And darker. I had some creepy music playing the background with barely audible whispers that I used a sound editing program to add in, and it was when the players finally realized that they were hearing voices that they started getting paranoid. when they found the young noble, he was having his life drained away by shadows. Boss fight ensues, and I kick in the second piece of music. slightly more intense but still very creepy, and this time you could hear the voices.

I saw the one female player in the group the next day. She slapped me on sight for giving her horrifying nightmares.

[Boci]

I once had a "Descent Into Darkness" type of session. the party was following a young man who was running away from his noble parents in a bid for an uncontrolled life so that they could bring him back. anyways, I had him realize he was being pursued, so he found a small ruin to hide in, making the players go in after him. Only, under the first floor, the place got bigger. And darker. I had some creepy music playing the background with barely audible whispers that I used a sound editing program to add in, and it was when the players finally realized that they were hearing voices that they started getting paranoid. when they found the young noble, he was having his life drained away by shadows. Boss fight ensues, and I kick in the second piece of music. slightly more intense but still very creepy, and this time you could hear the voices.

I saw the one female player in the group the next day. She slapped me on sight for giving her horrifying nightmares.

I am intriged. What were these songs?

[Ashram]

Fortunately, the group that I play with is a hardened, crusty bunch of players, so "going too far" really doesn't exist for us, aside from possibly the awkward sexy time things should role play swing that way.

Considering one of our older DMs, part of the group, basically had an evil cult infiltrate a giant holy city dedicated to the DM's homebrew version of Pelor, brainwash all of the citizens, brutally murder all of the clergy of the goddess, AND wrench open a Gate to the Negative Energy Plane. The description for the room with the Gate in it, with the hanging bodies and gruesome, gory stuff was priceless.

Of course, this was because we felt safe in the city.

[Halae]

I am intriged. What were these songs?

I don't remember what the first, more subtle one was, but the second was the theme for a battle with the AIDA virus from the Dot Hack series. I'd provide a link to it on youtube, but computer is being finicky right now and won't let me enter in the search command. It's quite literally the only song that has ever made the hair on the back of my neck stand up, and I absolutely hate it. It was perfect for the session.

[Callista]

I once used a lot of zombies in an adventure... only to find out that one of the players found undead to be the creepiest things on the planet--and in a "this is not fun" way, not a Halloween-scary way. She only told me after I'd already run two undead-heavy sessions!

Nowadays, when I do spiders/rats/zombies/etc., I check for phobias first.

[Quietus]

Not really. As a ghost she's constantly reliving the worst moments of the end of her life. The players will be getting there information about what's been going on from the flashbacks they get should they touch her. (Not that I'm expecting them to, or even know what she is at first)

I could ease up on it all, but I'm also not certain if I should. Sadly, little Alyss has somehow managed to develop as a fully fleshed character, complete with personality and backstory both her her and for Mr Dragon, her wooden toy dragon. And the players have never met her.



It would indeed. (Notes down idea)

If it's gotten to that point, I'd keep her around, but don't lay on the details when describing what players see/hear/experience when they touch her. *DO* mention that horrible things have happened - "You see silhouettes of men standing around you, and the glint of metal hooks - a moment later, your world is filled with pain, and you instinctively draw your hand back" sort of thing. If your players WANT more information, they'll go for it; Touching the ghost again is, in that case, akin to them saying "I want to know more". Give enough to give the basic idea, but the stuff that really makes you cry? Don't offer that up first. It's good stuff, but this way, your players get to decide how far is too far.

As for pushing my players too far.. not yet. I had my finger on the button, but made it so they got there in time for me not to push it. Brute threatening a young woman in a most lewd fashion, calvary arrives type stuff, where they got to stop things before they got too far. I wouldn't go farther than that, because while I knew the situation would push a few buttons, going beyond just threatening would be too much for my group. Of course, I haven't said as much to any of them, so they may still believe I'm willing to do so.. but that's just part of being a DM, threatening something you aren't willing to do, and having the players believe you are.

[LibraryOgre]

So my question to the Playground is this: Have you ever written an adventure that you think went a little too far? Something deeply upsetting or horrifying that you felt hit a little to close to home or pushed buttons that shouldn't be pushed?

I did that for a Halloween Shadowrun adventure. Some of the grotesque flavor text of a serial killing Spider Shaman's lair was a bit much for them.

[yaklin]

not as a dm, but as a player I once made my group give me weird looks by explaining in excruciating detail how I was torturing the assassin that I intimidated into surrendering. After that my dm said I was no longer lawful good.

[Drakevarg]

not as a dm, but as a player I once made my group give me weird looks by explaining in excruciating detail how I was torturing the assassin that I intimidated into surrendering. After that my dm said I was no longer lawful good.

I tried to do this once, but the DMPC did it offscreen himself. I got pissed and tried to throw him off a cliff for stealing my fun.

Unfortunately, he managed to break grapple and had the Run feat. This was before any of us knew about the "can run a number of rounds equal to their CON score without saves" bit, otherwise my character and his massive CON would've caught him.

[yaklin]

I tried to do this once, but the DMPC did it offscreen himself. I got pissed and tried to throw him off a cliff for stealing my fun.

Unfortunately, he managed to break grapple and had the Run feat. This was before any of us knew about the "can run a number of rounds equal to their CON score without saves" bit, otherwise my character and his massive CON would've caught him.

If he tries to do that again, just torture him again, you can never be to sure after all.

[Drakevarg]

If he tries to do that again, just torture him again, you can never be to sure after all.

I wanted to... unfortunately that stupid DMPC killed him when he was done.

Unless you mean torture the DMPC. In which case, by all means.

[Lycan 01]

Hm. A couple times. Both Call of Cthulhu related, naturally.

After I described in brutal and lurid detail (in a pitch black room, mind you) to one player how his character was strapped to a table and vivisected by an insane French chef, he followed me back into the room where the other players were, even though he was supposed to be seperated since he was having a hallucination. Apparently, I scared him so badly he didn't want to be in the dark, and he didn't want to be alone. He then had to be driven home after the game, since he refused to walk back to his house alone in the dark.

And then there was the time one guy ripped his own femur out. I described, again in graphic detail, about how the mind-controlled character plunged his hands into the open wound in his leg, gripped his femur, and violently began to tug and twist it until it finally wrenched free of his flesh, and he collapsed to the floor in a pool of his own blood, where he rapidly bled to death. Everyone at the table began to massage their legs as I described the snapping of tendons and whatnot, and one guy was just staring at the table in a "find a happy place, find a happy place..." sort of way. Oops...

[AsteriskAmp]

In my actual group:
Strangely enough my group has no problem with gore and excruciating detail, which they sometimes indulge into.

On the other side I probably qualify by essentialy forcing the paladin to murder sleeping child and mothers (They were "Usually Lawful Evil", but still...) and having an amputee as one of the BBEGs.

On the players side I've been threatened to a beating by a player twice my size if I kill an NPC "Freddy" (Friederich) which he has taken a liking to, he is a guard with Warrior levels, so I try to make him run from the PCs.

I will probably qualify for what I will be doing soon to my players.

And in CR fashion I threw a Tarrasque to 3 Lvl 1 PCs, in their first session ... ever.

[Callista]

Tarrasque vs. level 1s? Why?!

Uh, I guess it might be interesting to see what they did to escape it, but that's far too much of a risk of TPK...

*looks at topic title* Oh. Right. Well, I guess that did go too far!

(My DM recently sent level 5s against something with the breath weapon of an ancient dragon. I feel your pain, and so does my roasted, and luckily resurrected, character.)

[AsteriskAmp]

Tarrasque vs. level 1s? Why?!

Uh, I guess it might be interesting to see what they did to escape it, but that's far too much of a risk of TPK...

They escape to the sewers through a hole in the ground, the Tarrasque began fighting paladins which began swarming it, it went mentally downhill from there for them, NPCs backstabbing are a common ocurrence by now.

[WarKitty]

Usually my issue is with more "realistic" DM's that get to far into rape-y stuff...

[Starfols]

On the other side I probably qualify by essentialy forcing the paladin to murder sleeping child and mothers (They were "Usually Lawful Evil", but still...)

Was that a "guys I want my pally to have a moral quandary" type of forcing or the "I'm going to kill your character if you don't do something immoral" type of forcing? If a character wants to be good, you should let him.

And in CR fashion I threw a Tarrasque to 3 Lvl 1 PCs, in their first session ... ever.

Why? Seriously, why?

OT: I usually don't, because I'm the only dm who doesn't. Most of the people I've played under is or attempts to be grimdark, albeit some people are worse offenders than others. At the very least the bbegs are the ultimate evil of their universes. My games tend to be lighthearted, if for nothing else, a change of pace.

Edit:

Usually my issue is with more "realistic" DM's that get to far into rape-y stuff...

Yeah, that's a problem. The worst I've had is "I tie the girl to the bed and slash her throat so she can't scream"

[AsteriskAmp]

Was that a "guys I want my pally to have a moral quandary" type of forcing or the "I'm going to kill your character if you don't do something immoral" type of forcing? If a character wants to be good, you should let him.

It was a: The Chaotic Neutral Druid knows he is slipping into Chaotic Good and that they will be dangerous to a nearby town, also they could be looted, the Chaotic Good Cleric knows they are Lawful Evil and encourages him to actually masacre since they are asleep and won't probably suffer and they are dangerous, the Palladin knows they are going to be dangerous, know some of them have actual combat training and finally they are in the under-ground fortress anyway. I keep an alignment chart, I hate instant falls and the likes, and prefer roleplaying character to alignment, he could have just walked by, but he still ended up killing them.

Why? Seriously, why?

Ingame: It's related to the plot.
Outside: Need giant monster to destroy things so players know it's dangerous and get into tutorialesque dungeon and they need a reason to be together, especially when two of the players don't get along well. Also it's part of the plot.

[Cerlis]

Usually my issue is with more "realistic" DM's that get to far into rape-y stuff...

Luckily never had to do deal with it but this mind set (the DM not Warkitty) is the "to far"

To Aiden i'd agree that many movies and books reference horrible things (like a woman being raped and murdered after watching her sisters and mother raped and murdered) without actually showing it or saying it.

"You see him approaching her, fingering a glistening blade that looks to small to kill someone quickly and your vision blacks out and all you hear is the screaming" is as far as you might want to go and for some people even THAT is to far.

I'm reminded of being quite a bit put off by some players intimidating an NPC by threatening to Rape him.

As for DMs going to far, i got a bit miffed by a DM who i think TPKed us twice because i dont think he got CR and that some monsters are different. I belive the book says that CR is suppose to be essentially a "boss encounter". uses significant resources and players have to be very careful or one or two might die. And that some monsters have so many Defensive and offensive and crowd control abilities and Hi CR that they are meant to be a "boss monster". The creatre was a ...Vrock i think its called (the demon bird) i'm sure it was CR appropriate but not realisitically appropriate. We where defending a castle wall and there where 3 groups of them. as well as some...ogres or some sort of bruiser. Half the party was tied up with the Bruisers and the other half could only engage one group of Vrocks, It was impossible with all their HP AC attacks and abilities to get past 1 group much less two groups to stop the third group from finishing some 10 turn ritual to Explode the entire area. when we retried in a different part of the battlefield with different characters (or some of us made different characters) we where dealing with like 6 creatures that could teleport as a move action. It was impossible for any of our melee group to Full attack, and the only damage that was getting done was by our Pixie warlock/rogue (Greater invisibility +ranged touch+ sneak attack)