What if martial adepts knew all their maneuvers and stances?

[Endarire]

Part of what makes T1s T1 is their tremendous versatility. Granting a Warblade every Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven maneuver and stance for which he qualifies hardly seems unbalancing. The amount of readied maneuvers would be the same, and he'd still need to refresh maneuvers as normal.

The same goes for Crusaders, Swordsages, and initiator PrCs with their respective disciplines.

Multiclass martial adepts would know all maneuvers from each of their classes, but could only ready each maneuver once. A Crusader/Swordsage could only ready Stone Bones as either a Crusader or a Swordsage maneuver.

Doing this doesn't seem unbalancing compared to how casters rule the world. It also reduces prereq-related problems.

Adaptive Style becomes more potent, but its full-round action is still prohibitive in most situations.

CLARIFICATION: Martial Stance, Martial Study, and maneuver-granting items still function as normal. Crusaders still have their randomized granted maneuvers, but can only put so many cards in the rotation at a time, like as normal.

[Eldariel]

Wouldn't be broken. It would, however, cut into the wealth of different martial adepts you can build. One of the awesome things about Swordsage, for example, is how you can build a mystic pop culture Ninja, a D&D style Monk, a non-magical Assassin, a Swashbuckler or a Master Martial Artist with the same class, just with different maneuver choices.

And Warblade can be a Fighter or a Barbarian or a Swashbuckler or a Marshal or so. If you basically give everyone everything, the distinctive Warblade and Swordsage and Crusader Archetypes sorta disappear. Maybe have them "specialize" in some school instead and get all stuff from that? Some Psion-style specialization I could totally see. Giving them all maneuvers would be Wizard-style "has everything" solution; I personally find the Psion's Inclusive School Specializations much more interesting.


But yeah, power-wise it wouldn't make all that much difference in the end. They'd be stronger, sure, but probably still Tier 3.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Wouldn't be broken. It would, however, cut into the wealth of different martial adepts you can build. One of the awesome things about Swordsage, for example, is how you can build a mystic pop culture Ninja, a D&D style Monk, a non-magical Assassin, a Swashbuckler or a Master Martial Artist with the same class, just with different maneuver choices.

And Warblade can be a Fighter or a Barbarian or a Swashbuckler or a Marshal or so. If you basically give everyone everything, the distinctive Warblade and Swordsage and Crusader Archetypes sorta disappear. Maybe have them "specialize" in some school instead and get all stuff from that? Some Psion-style specialization I could totally see. Giving them all maneuvers would be Wizard-style "has everything" solution; I personally find the Psion's Inclusive School Specializations much more interesting.


But yeah, power-wise it wouldn't make all that much difference in the end. They'd be stronger, sure, but probably still Tier 3.

You can still have those archetypes, you don't need to use every maneuver, you just have them should it be appropriate to use them. Just as a Cleric can be focused on one thing most of the time but pull out something different in times of need, so this form of martial adept could do the same through Adaptive Style.

It's not much more powerful and I see no reason not to do it this way if you don't want to be bothered with prerequisites and dislike knowing there is a maneuver to solve a problem that you don't have access to, but could if you had more maneuvers known.

[Eldariel]

You can still have those archetypes, you don't need to use every maneuver, you just have them should it be appropriate to use them. Just as a Cleric can be focused on one thing most of the time but pull out something different in times of need, so this form of martial adept could do the same through Adaptive Style.

True, but you have to intentionally gimp yourself to play into any of those styles. I don't like having to intentionally gimp myself. I like being given options and picking the ones I want.

[Eloel]

That would make every single melee class dip into every single martial adept class. Your IL, at 20, with 1 level of adept, is 10. That means all maneuvers upto 5th level known. That is always worth it.

Also, Crusaders would get screwed bad. Like, really bad.

[Kaww]

I agree with Ozgun, playing a Crusader becomes like roulette. You'll newer know what you might end up with... I don't think it would overpower them, they would just go up a tier, two with the Master of the nine PrC.

[ScionoftheVoid]

True, but you have to intentionally gimp yourself to play into any of those styles. I don't like having to intentionally gimp myself. I like being given options and picking the ones I want.

Oh, I know the feeling, but anyone suggesting the idea obviously doesn't have this problem. I wouldn't use this, and nor would you, but (apart from for Crusaders) there's no reason for someone else not to use it if they're comfortable enough with the idea to suggest it. Of course, running it past the players first is a good idea, but that applies to all medium-to-major houserules.

Note that I'm not accusing you of trying to stop this purely due to your own preferences, I just don't phrase things well a lot of the time.

[Koury]

Why would Crusaders be screwed? They still only pick the normal amount to be readied (5, 6 or 7), they can just choose from all of the three schools they get instead of only portions of the three schools they get.

[dsmiles]

Why would Crusaders be screwed? They still only pick the normal amount to be readied (5, 6 or 7), they can just choose from all of the three schools they get instead of only portions of the three schools they get.

Problem is, they don't get to pick all the time. They get thrown random maneuvers as they go.

[Koury]

But thats how they are now. They pick 5 or so from all their known, and are granted maneuvers from those 5. They can just pick the 5 potential maneuvers from a larger group.

[KillianHawkeye]

Problem is, they don't get to pick all the time. They get thrown random maneuvers as they go.

They still ready a subset of their known maneuvers, same as the other two classes. It's just the granted/witheld status that is randomized.

[dsmiles]

But thats how they are now. They pick 5 or so from all their known, and are granted maneuvers from those 5. They can just pick the 5 potential maneuvers from a larger group.

My bad.
I read it wrong. I thought that the random ones came from all their maneuvers known.
That makes more sense, now.

[742]

knowing all maneuvers from one (two for swordsage) schools for free doesnt sound too overwhelming, wouldnt entirely cripple a crusader and would still let you build your character to fit a certain whatsit and make it so not all of that class are the same.

[dsmiles]

knowing all maneuvers from one (two for swordsage) schools for free doesnt sound too overwhelming, wouldnt entirely cripple a crusader and would still let you build your character to fit a certain and make it so not all of that class are the same.

Can somebody tell me what page the number of schools you can draw from is on? I'm trying to understand ToB better, since everybody says it's so awesome, and eventually I may run into a player that wants to use it.

[Reynard]

Crusaders have access to Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon and White Raven.

Swordsages have access to Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw.

Warblade have access to Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw and White Raven.

Page 48.

[dsmiles]

Crusaders have access to Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon and White Raven.

Swordsages have access to Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw.

Warblade have access to Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw and White Raven.

Page 48.

I got that part, but others have said that you basically have to pick from one school (two for swordsages). I was wondering where that reference was.

Or was my initial assumption correct in that, playing a Warblade for instance, I can choose my maneuvers and stances from any of the 5 schools available to Warblades, in any combination?

[Eldariel]

I got that part, but others have said that you basically have to pick from one school (two for swordsages). I was wondering where that reference was.

Or was my initial assumption correct in that, playing a Warblade for instance, I can choose my maneuvers and stances from any of the 5 schools available to Warblades, in any combination?

They mean, to meet the prerequisites of the higher level maneuvers, you want to only pick mainly from few schools so you have enough maneuvers to qualify. SS gets more maneuvers so they can specialize in multiple schools. Warblades generally specialize in one and splash the others.

[dsmiles]

They mean, to meet the prerequisites of the higher level maneuvers, you want to only pick mainly from few schools so you have enough maneuvers to qualify. SS gets more maneuvers so they can specialize in multiple schools. Warblades generally specialize in one and splash the others.

So, in theory, one could pick from any available school, if they meet the prereqs?
I really need to understand this book better. This and MoI.

[Eldariel]

So, in theory, one could pick from any available school, if they meet the prereqs?
I really need to understand this book better. This and MoI.

You're free to pick any maneuvers you qualify for (that is, have sufficient Initiator Level and the prerequisite number of Maneuvers Known from the school). There are no arbitrary restrictions. Just, as you only get so many maneuvers over all your levels, qualifying for a large number of high level maneuvers from all schools available to you is not happening (though the maneuver trading on 4th and every 2 levels thereafter helps a lot).

[molten_dragon]

So, in theory, one could pick from any available school, if they meet the prereqs?
I really need to understand this book better. This and MoI.

Yes, you can pick maneuvers/stances from any school available, if you meet the prerequisites.

Personally, I waive the prerequisites in games I run. It lets martial adepts cherry-pick the best maneuvers/stances available to them at each level, and helps them keep up with spellcasters just a bit better.

[KillianHawkeye]

I really need to understand this book better. This and MoI.

Yeah, I've found both books to be awesome, but they both require being read a few times before you really fully understand the content.

[Pechvarry]

Wouldn't be broken. It would, however, cut into the wealth of different martial adepts you can build. One of the awesome things about Swordsage, for example, is how you can build a mystic pop culture Ninja, a D&D style Monk, a non-magical Assassin, a Swashbuckler or a Master Martial Artist with the same class, just with different maneuver choices.

And Warblade can be a Fighter or a Barbarian or a Swashbuckler or a Marshal or so. If you basically give everyone everything, the distinctive Warblade and Swordsage and Crusader Archetypes sorta disappear. Maybe have them "specialize" in some school instead and get all stuff from that? Some Psion-style specialization I could totally see. Giving them all maneuvers would be Wizard-style "has everything" solution; I personally find the Psion's Inclusive School Specializations much more interesting.

This is, incidentally, one of my biggest beefs with the PHB casting classes. Not enough identity when the RP difference of 2 wizards is "I'm a skinny wizard" and "I'm a short wizard".

[Endarire]

CLARIFICATION: Martial Stance, Martial Study, and maneuver-granting items still function as normal. Crusaders still have their randomized granted maneuvers, but can only put so many cards in the rotation at a time, like as normal.

[FMArthur]

What about if they worked Erudite-style, with a unique number of maneuvers per day? So they would have unlimited Maneuvers Known but once they readied a set of maneuvers they were fixed with that set for the whole day. I think that would be balanced for Swordsages at least. Warblades and Crusaders would get more powerful with the variant; maybe it would be wise to reduce the Warblade's number of readied maneuvers by 1 if you use this and have the Crusader's table adjusted to progress from 3 or 4 to 7 instead of 5 to 7 readied maneuvers.

[Koury]

What about if they worked Erudite-style, with a unique number of maneuvers per day? So they would have unlimited Maneuvers Known but once they readied a set of maneuvers they were fixed with that set for the whole day. I think that would be balanced for Swordsages at least. Warblades and Crusaders would get more powerful with the variant; maybe it would be wise to reduce the Warblade's number of readied maneuvers by 1 if you use this and have the Crusader's table adjusted to progress from 3 or 4 to 7 instead of 5 to 7 readied maneuvers.

How would Adaptive Style fit in?

[FMArthur]

It wouldn't, just like it wouldn't for a Wizard or a Psychic Warrior; I don't think it has to, does it? My idea was for something balanced with the current ToB classes as-is while still sort of living up to the intent of the changes suggested in the thread so that they could coexist with normal martial adepts in the same world. Making it like a regular class variant instead of a flat-out universal buff to ToB classes.

[Godskook]

Can somebody tell me what page the number of schools you can draw from is on? I'm trying to understand ToB better, since everybody says it's so awesome, and eventually I may run into a player that wants to use it.

742 was proposing a houserule, not suggesting anything about how the ToB system currently works.

[dsmiles]

742 was proposing a houserule, not suggesting anything about how the ToB system currently works.

Mah bad, yo.