Will the paladin fall?

[crazywolf]

ok, so the party learned that caravans are being attacked and apon further inspection they learn that it is the work of goblins. now the group finds and ambushes a few goblins and find a young child who was in one of the caravans that was attacked. now, after more traveling the group finds a lone goblin and capture him. The Paladin specks goblin and tells him to tell were their camp is, the goblin refuses so they proced to chop his toes and fingers off until he proves to be useles and the barbarion chops off, and collects his head. Now the group told the paladin to check on the child before they tortured the goblin, but the player still knew they were going to torture him.
So my question is , would the paladin fall??
hes level 1 so think i would let this one slide
and hes chotic good if that helps him.

[Yuki Akuma]

Did the Paladin know? OOC and IC knowledge are distinct.

If he finds out after the fact, he might feel guilty, but he won't Fall because he didn't know.

Being Chaotic Good doesn't mean you condone torture. In fact, a Chaotic Good Paladin would probably be more horrified. (Not that a Lawful Good Paladin wouldn't.)

[BobVosh]

Did the paladin know, and if so who does he worship? How does said deity look upon torture? Is the knowledge that they try to extract important enough that the deity would agree?

If the pally doesn't know then stop there, he doesn't fall. If he did know, the other questions should help you determine if he should fall.

[Yuki Akuma]

Did the paladin know, and if so who does he worship?

Stop.

Unless you're playing Forgotten Realms, the god a Paladin worships doesn't make a bit of difference. The only thing that matters is the Paladin's code. And if he does a single Evil act, he falls. No questions asked.

Even if he's a Paladin of St. Cuthbert (who is Lawful Neutral).

Paladins gain their power from Goodness itself, and their convictions, not from some deity they may or may not revere.

[Yora]

However, if the party consists of people who torture prisoners to death, the paladin player should probably make a new character.

[dsmiles]

YES!

Sorry, knee-jerk reaction.

3.5 or 4e?

3.5, assuming he unequivocally knew that they were going to torture the goblin, I'd say yes. Even the 3.5 Paladin of Freedom (CG) would be horrified at this thoroughly non-good act.

4e it all depends on the deity.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yes, he falls. Because the rules for the non-paladin of freedom are self-contradictory, and require him to be both chaotic good and lawful good simultaneously.

[crazywolf]

However, if the party consists of people who torture prisoners to death, the paladin player should probably make a new character.

Yeah, the pally was a last minute player and i dont think he knew that the others were doing that (but he did discover the body)
hes a paladin of..... darn cant remember his name right now

but he is a paladin of the elf god (even thogh he is a human but he wants to be an elf)

but anyway they did find more goblins and tortured them the paladin did "interagate" one of them, but didnt torture him he just told him he would give him to the barbarion if he couldnt get the information.

[crazywolf]

Yes, he falls. Because the rules for the non-paladin of freedom are self-contradictory, and require him to be both chaotic good and lawful good simultaneously.

but hes not a paladin of freedom
hes a different case he worships the elf god even though he is a human but he was raised by elfs and he wants to be one

*edit* this is a 3.5 game, yes
i figure lawful good only paladins were stupid so i changed it to any good

[dsmiles]

but hes not a paladin of freedom
hes a different case he worships the elf god even though he is a human but he was raised by elfs and he wants to be one

I'm going to assume 3.5?

[Yuki Akuma]

If he's Chaotic Good, and a Paladin, he's a Paladin of Freedom.

A normal Paladin who happens to be an elf is still Lawful Good. Even if he worships a Chaotic Good deity. A Paladin can worship whoever he damn well please, as he doesn't get his powers from his deity!

Although if he threatened to hand the goblin over to the Barbarian and knew he'd be tortured, yeah, his ass is falling.

I'm going to assume 3.5?

He keeps saying Chaotic Good.

Duh?

[Renegade Paladin]

Ah. In that case it's more straightforward; he falls for not being lawful good, as a paladin is required to be, being a paragon of chivalry and all that.

[dsmiles]

He keeps saying Chaotic Good.

Duh?

Sorry. I still use the 9-point alignment system in 4e.

[crazywolf]

Although if he threatened to hand the goblin over to the Barbarian and knew he'd be tortured, yeah, his ass is falling.

acually the goblin didnt tell them anything so the barbarion choped his head off

[ZeroNumerous]

*edit* this is a 3.5 game, yes
i figure lawful good only paladins were stupid so i changed it to any good

Why are people saying he has to be LG/A paladin of freedom when the OP clearly states there's a houserule in effect?

[crazywolf]

Now he didnt acually torture anyone
(although he did smash some goblins with his greatsword)
so what than?

[crazywolf]

Why are people saying he has to be LG/A paladin of freedom when the OP clearly states there's a houserule in effect?

Thanks i've been trying to say that the whole time
i dont like Lawful only paladins so i made the house rule

[dsmiles]

I'm still going with, "If he knew, he falls."

Cue alien rant:

Spoiler

Show

"PALADINS DON'T WORK THAT WAY!"

[JBento]

This day of the week already? Oh well, here we go:

Nitpick: if it's 4E, the Paladin doesn't fall regardless of god, because 4E paladins can't fall (unless they fail their Acrobatics check).

As Yuki pointed out, in 3.5 god doesn't matter (barring houserules or Retarded Realms).

If the paladin even SUSPECTED the torture was going to happen, he falls, and the cobblestones are now cracked.

[dsmiles]

This day of the week already? Oh well, here we go:

It is Alignment Sunday. I think falling paladins qualifies for an alignment thread.

REMINDER: Tomorrow is Monkday!

[Foryn Gilnith]

If he knew, his code of conduct is violated, but IMO not so grossly that he immediately falls. Failing to correct his fellow adventurers is a further violation, one whose severity is mounting with time. On top of the first one, he's heading right for a fall unless he makes it very clear to his associates what should be done about torture.

[Kastanok]

I would say Falls unless he can somehow justify his in-action to himself in the name of the Greater Good and even then he's on the real knife's edge. It can never happen again and, preferably, the Paladin some make some effort to atone for letting a sentient be tortured.

Could make for interesting inter-party drama if the Paladin goes against his comrades if they try it again. I don't mean actually fight them, more like make it very clear what the consequences would be.

[Calmar]

A normal Paladin who happens to be an elf is still Lawful Good. Even if he worships a Chaotic Good deity. A Paladin can worship whoever he damn well please, as he doesn't get his powers from his deity!

"Who's that kind man over there?"
-"It's good Sir Tharaxos, paladin of Graz'z.
""

I wonder how playing the rules is more fun than playing the game. Besides, while a paladin in a game where a divine caster isn't required to have a patron deity might get his spells out of pure goodness, he still has to follow the one-step rule for alignment, if worship is required.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I wonder how playing the rules is more fun than playing the game.

I also wonder at that. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll continue to play my warrior of justice and virtue, speaking out against Heironeous, lord of sycophants and hypocrites, while championing the more moderate aspects of Hextorian theology, which have guided the kingdom and its people to prosperity for generations.

[Cerlis]

Since you houseruled the alignment of paladins I take it your heart is into making the game more fun and fluid. Not grossely, but like you dont want to enforce a rule if that just makes the gamers unhappy.

I'd say you have two major options
If the Paladin player wants to play a Bastion of good in this world AAAAND YOU THINK THE PARTY MIGHT BE WILLING TO NEGOTIATE TERMS; Tell him he feels the light in him diminishing. Dont make him fall black and white. As he falls from goodness he feels less blessed, If he keeps it up he STARTS loosing abilities (First he loses his power to punish evil doers (smite) since his judgment is wrong, keeps it up he loses his blessings (Cha to saves) even more and the Light wont come to his beck and call (lay on hands)). This is assuming he levels enough to get those. BUT you shouldnt enforce the paladin falling system If the party goes straight for the torture thing. If the players discussed their options and tortured the goblin cus it was their only option (other than getting ambushed and dying) that is Evil based on logic. They could be talked out of it. If they seem Kick in the Door style or "Classic adventuring party that only cares about themselves" then Forcing a player to go at odds with his teammates will just end in frustration

If this is the case, just wave the paladin falling rule, if you want you can play it as "Paladin is a great bastion of a cause". he might slowly start turning evil or corrupt. Let him smite what he wants, and play with the players. He's like a fighter or barbarian but his powers come from faith and devotion rather than rage or knowledge

[Yuki Akuma]

"Who's that kind man over there?"
-"It's good Sir Tharaxos, paladin of Graz'z.
""

I wonder how playing the rules is more fun than playing the game. Besides, while a paladin in a game where a divine caster isn't required to have a patron deity might get his spells out of pure goodness, he still has to follow the one-step rule for alignment, if worship is required.

It says nowhere in the Paladin class description that he must worship a deity, or that he must be within one step of their alignment if he does. He worships deities like any non-Cleric does.

Of course he's not going to worship an Evil deity - he's a Paladin! But he can worship a Neutral one, or a Chaotic Good one.

[BridgeCity]

I feel it comes back to one very simple question (that I'm not sure if you answered, I looked but didn't see an answer).

Did the Paladin, not the player, but the actual character the Paladin, know his comrades were deliberately luring him away so that they could torture the goblin, or did he believe they honestly just wanted him to check on the child and was shocked to find that when he got back they had tortured the dude?

If the paladin had no knowledge that the event was going to happen, he doesn't fall. If he knew what they were up to and went along with it, he falls.

The distinction between what the character knew and what the player knew needs to be made.

[Quietus]

I also wonder at that. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll continue to play my warrior of justice and virtue, speaking out against Heironeous, lord of sycophants and hypocrites, while championing the more moderate aspects of Hextorian theology, which have guided the kingdom and its people to prosperity for generations.

Hah. I have a society in my homebrewed world like this.. the biggest city in the setting, used to be ruled over by a particularly nasty dragon, the forces of Good-aligned deities couldn't overcome her.. so my Hextor equivalent stepped in, crushed a few skulls that the forces of Good weren't willing to do, and got the job done. It was a bit messier than some might like, and their methods were.. not very nice. But he got the job done.

The city's become a bit more moderate over the last couple years, but it's certainly not a bastion of good, necessarily.

[jpreem]

1 level? I'd say give him a free feat and tell him that he is a fighter from now on.

[Lord Bingo]

The Paladin falls!

In the first case the player metagamed so that his character would not be present when the other characters tortured and killed the gobbo. It is clearly stated that in a later encounter the paladin interrogated a gobbo and then turned a it over to the half-orc knowing full well what was going to happen and even making threats to that effect.

If I was the DM I would talk to my characters about metagaming and I would then show a little lenience and instruct the player of the paladin that he was now a fighter and that he should change his alignment to Chaotic neutral to better reflect his moral standpoint.

Regarding the requirement of a paladin to be lawful and your thinking it is stupid, I fear that might be because you misunderstand the intention of the alignment. Lawful characters keep their word, respect legitimate authority, etc. IMO a paladin that is not trustworthy and respectful is not worth the paper he is written upon. He/she gains so many boon that there has to be a price to pay.