Morality and Players

[jebob]

Ok, my players are a bunch of racist 'do-gooders' (IC at least) who think nothing of butchering anything thats not human, elven etc.

How can I make them realise that slaughtering goblin babies is an evil act?

[jiriku]

Tell them so?

[WhiteShark]

Have them go on a mission with a celestial who is horrified by the acts they commit against other races?

[Silus]

Have them go on a mission with a celestial who is horrified by the acts they commit against other races?

Ugh, babysitter...

[Diarmuid]

Have there be IC consequences for their actions.

[WarKitty]

A trap misfires, killing everything around. A goblin mother sacrifices herself to save her child. With her dying breath she begs the PC's (as the only ones left alive) to take care of her baby.

[hamishspence]

Have them meet devils who have come to applaud their evil deeds and suggest they keep it up?

[AtwasAwamps]

A trap misfires, killing everything around. A goblin mother sacrifices herself to save her child. With her dying breath she begs the PC's (as the only ones left alive) to take care of her baby.

You are a beautiful beautiful ******* and I love you.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Have them go on a mission with a celestial who is horrified by the acts they commit against other races?

Have a Celestial who is horrified by the acts they commit against other races go on a mission to stop them?

Edit: also, WarKitty's solution.

[Sipex]

A trap misfires, killing everything around. A goblin mother sacrifices herself to save her child. With her dying breath she begs the PC's (as the only ones left alive) to take care of her baby.

This is the best solution I think.

[arrowhen]

Do the players *want* the game to be about the moral ramifications of their actions? If they just want to kill monsters, why do you keep throwing babies at them instead?

[Silus]

Do the players *want* the game to be about the moral ramifications of their actions? If they just want to kill monsters, why do you keep throwing babies at them instead?

A very valid point...

[Shademan]

HAVE they killed goblin babies?
in that case: goblin paladins!

[Susano-wo]

Yeah, I think the real problem that needs to be solved is the [apparent] disconnect between what you want and what they want.

If they just wanna kill them some evil humanoids etc, and you want (god I'm trying not to make one side sound better than the other...but I don't know how) moral implications to matter...well, either you guys need to compromise together, or get different groups to play with...

[jebob]

A trap misfires, killing everything around. A goblin mother sacrifices herself to save her child. With her dying breath she begs the PC's (as the only ones left alive) to take care of her baby.

A good idea. How about combining that with a father who enters the story some time afterwards asking for the child? He could then become a villain (hero?) if they left it in a field someplace.

Do the players *want* the game to be about the moral ramifications of their actions? If they just want to kill monsters, why do you keep throwing babies at them instead?

I want to shake them out of their stereotypes and make them think for a change (they're a very hacky/slashy group). I'll try it, but I do need to be aware that I could bore them or lead them to inaction if every action comes back to haunt them.

Also: 10 views, 11 posts. Woah

[kyoryu]

Set up an adventure where a group of evil humans/elves/etc. is attacking an innocent goblin tribe.

Or, just accept that they like evil to be color-coded for their convenience, and let goblins be evil.

Or, talk to them OOC and inform them that, in this game world, all goblins are not inherently evil, and they are in fact just another sentient race, albeit one that has strong evil tendencies.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Have them meet devils who have come to applaud their evil deeds and suggest they keep it up?

This would be hilarious and I second it, though a "Celestials try to kill disable you after you slaughtered that orc village, including non-combatants" arc could be good fun.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I want to shake them out of their stereotypes and make them think for a change (they're a very hacky/slashy group). I'll try it, but I do need to be aware that I could bore them or lead them to inaction if every action comes back to haunt them.

The easiest way to handle this is to allow their reputation to haunt them. First they hear stories about their bloody escapades; then Good institutions start shunning them; then Evil institutions start offering them perks.

However, you must ask yourself why they are committing attrocities. Is it because they don't understand their Alignments? Do they mean to be Good but don't understand that Good means "respecting life?" If so, the above strategy should "scare them straight" - so to speak.

However, if they're simply not interested in Good vs. Evil, then the above strategy is going to be unproductive and - quite possibly - take a horrifying turn when they follow the path into Hell. Before it gets to that point, talk to your Players about what they're interested in getting out of a game; ideally you can infer this by how they play but it never hurts to just straight out ask them. Bad comes to worst, you realize you're not interested in running the sort of game they're interested in playing and y'all do something else.

[dsmiles]

A trap misfires, killing everything around. A goblin mother sacrifices herself to save her child. With her dying breath she begs the PC's (as the only ones left alive) to take care of her baby.

Congratulations, ma'am, you win the thread. This is the most moving scenario in here.

[nedz]

Have them meet devils who have come to applaud their evil deeds and suggest they keep it up?

+1

How about a Fiendish Bard who inspires them ?

The next time they embark up such an action, have them hear bagpipes in the distance. They feel inspired by the music. Only afterwards, when they seek out who aided them, do they discover the nature of musician.

This should raise questions and lead to some soul searching RP.

Actually its also quite likely that they will attack I suppose

In which event: the musician teleports/planeshifts out, only to return at some future time during another episode of evil.

[Choco]

Do the players *want* the game to be about the moral ramifications of their actions? If they just want to kill monsters, why do you keep throwing babies at them instead?

Maybe they just want to kill babies. Templated babies FTW!

[Silus]

Maybe they just want to kill babies. Templated babies FTW!

My Paladin was 12 years old, so it could be possible...

[SPoD]

Loan them a copy of Start of Darkness.

Alternately, just stop throwing goblin babies at them. Give them enemies that really ARE fine to slaughter indiscriminately, like undead or demons. If your players want to hack-and-slash it, why take it upon yourself to change them?

[kyoryu]

As a more subtle way to introduce the idea of goblins as non-evil, how about placing an obviously Good (due to context) NPC in a non-combat scenario?

The PCs enter the Temple of Pelor, to find the goblin preist Geeska, who tells the PCs tales of his family and how much he loves them.

To get really nasty, have Geeska tell them about these horrible raiders that have been destroying the homes of his family, who have forsaken the evil ways of most of their kin and have been struggling to be accepted members of civilization. This might be too anvilicious for a first encounter, and might work after they've gotten to know Geeska a bit.

[Goudaa]

As others have pointed out - for many the game of DnD isn't so much an RPG but a pen and paper videogame.

If that isn't your style, politely inform them monster hack n slash is boring for you and suggest Neverwinter Nights as an alternative. =)

[Reluctance]

Alternately, just stop throwing goblin babies at them. Give them enemies that really ARE fine to slaughter indiscriminately, like undead or demons. If your players want to hack-and-slash it, why take it upon yourself to change them?

This. Sometimes people just want the ability to bash heads without annoying moral ambiguity. Leave the option open rather than trying to force anyone to play "right".

And if you want your players to see humanoids as more than just vermin, don't count on the "aww, cute lil' babies" factor. Make the adult humanoids act like reasonable members of (an admittedly evil) society rather than uniform antagonistic cannon fodder. If you want something without a clear right side, use your usual good-aligned demihumans on both sides. If your players' eyes gloss over at this, get back to some good old fashioned monster bashing or start looking for a new group.

[MickJay]

I second sending a party of Good-aligned goblins with class levels against your players.

[Kylarra]

I think you really need to just have an OOC discussion with your players about the type of game that they and you are expecting to be played here.

[Yukitsu]

Years of gaming have basically just ingrained a small truism that goblins et al. are evil and should be killed just for being goblins et al. The natural system sets them up to be so, so unless you actually say your goblins are speshul and aren't actually evil, then you'll generally have to tell people this. And if they aren't, you should tell them what is, so they can go to that village and have fun burning it down instead.

If you're going for "there is no evil" blabbidy blah, I'd kind of question why the world needs adventurers at all.

[Susano-wo]

um...who says the world needs adventurers? And if it does, who says it needs them for the purposes of killing evil creatures?
killing something because it pings on the Pally's evilometer is also evil, so a character isn't justified (morally speaking) in slaughtering goblin villages, no matter how always evil they are.