High CR (20+) entities and statistics

[Amiel]

What are people's thoughts and opinions on defining high CR entities through encapsulated numerical variables?

Should, for example, deities and like embodied-concepts be given stats? Do you think it's a good idea to give numerical representation to divinity?

Or do you think several pages extolling what the deity represents- and covering fields as dogma, portfolio, worshippers, localities of worship, manifestation of presence et al - in words be more than adequate to describe the power of the god?

If you are in flavour of giving the entity stats, would you work against a HD-ability score-et al ceiling, or are you more in flavour of crafting the mechanical structure to a degree that best represents the deity and his or her portfolio? In other words, say, 45 HD avatar versus 75 HD deity.

[akma]

Anything that has stats can be killed. Since I don`t plan to let players kill my gods, I`m not going to stat my gods. Still, the gods are very powerfull. If the god of speed will run from one side of a continent to the other the continent will split, and if the manifistation of how time effects things will enter a plane everything in it will age a million years in a matter of seconds. But that`s fluff only, and a reason why the gods don`t interfere directly with what`s heppening to mortals.
Other then that, if it can be killed, I will stat it, and I decided of a cap of CR 25 for the beings in my campaign setting.

[Myth]

In DnD the Gods are akin to very powerful angels/demons. They can stomp on anything that is not a God itself but they are far from the all-encompasing divine aspect we think of as God for the major monotheistic religions of present day. In other words, I'd let them try to kill Lathander if they wanted to (although they'd fail without my help). But nothing above Divine Rank 20 is statted. I always have AO or another overdeity to fall back on if i need a reset button or a nuclear bomb.

[Runestar]

To me, there is nothing wrong with giving a deity stats, so long as you are comfortable with the notion that your PCs may one day be strong enough to challenge and even defeat them, and are willing to abide by those stats.

In addition, I feel that stats may make for an even more meaningful interaction, because this allows the PCs to pit their stats against them. For instance, say a party has an audience with Asmodeus. A normal DM may just announce that they are subject to his aura of submission. To me, that is quite anticlimatic. What is the point of having all these stats if the DM is just going to handwave them at his whim and fancy?

Another DM might announce that his aura is in effect and allow the players to make a save, however impossibly difficult (after all, one of them might be a warblade with a very high concentration score). So while the rest of the party might still be affected, the warblade stands tall and proud.

[dsmiles]

To me, there is nothing wrong with giving a deity stats, so long as you are comfortable with the notion that your PCs may one day be strong enough to challenge and even defeat them, and are willing to abide by those stats.

Thus, I don't stat my deities.

In addition, I feel that stats may make for an even more meaningful interaction, because this allows the PCs to pit their stats against them. For instance, say a party has an audience with Asmodeus. A normal DM may just announce that they are subject to his aura of submission. To me, that is quite anticlimatic. What is the point of having all these stats if the DM is just going to handwave them at his whim and fancy?

Another DM might announce that his aura is in effect and allow the players to make a save, however impossibly difficult (after all, one of them might be a warblade with a very high concentration score). So while the rest of the party might still be affected, the warblade stands tall and proud.

I do, however, assign DC's to their abilities based off my idea of their level of power. PC's just don't get to kill my deities.

[Amiel]

Thanks for the responses, all :) It's given me food for thought. If there was a sourcebook on divinity - what it means to be divine, known gods and their worshippers (site of worship, holy days et al), would people be adverse to finding stats for these deities therein? Or would you mostly consider that the page count to be better used if more flavour text was included?

I suppose I just like designing for and statting out creatures beyond the limits of our current CR system.


What are people's opinions on epic monsters? Would you consider them to be rather superfluous? Or do they have a place in the cosmos?

[Blue Ghost]

Thanks for the responses, all :) It's given me food for thought. If there was a sourcebook on divinity - what it means to be divine, known gods and their worshippers (site of worship, holy days et al), would people be adverse to finding stats for these deities therein? Or would you mostly consider that the page count to be better used if more flavour text was included?

I suppose I just like designing for and statting out creatures beyond the limits of our current CR system.


What are people's opinions on epic monsters? Would you consider them to be rather superfluous? Or do they have a place in the cosmos?

Are you referring to Deities and Demigods? My opinion is that the stats for the gods are mostly superfluous, but I don't mind them being there.

[Amiel]

Are you referring to Deities and Demigods? My opinion is that the stats for the gods are mostly superfluous, but I don't mind them being there.

Well, a book along similar lines, yes :) Something like the Avatar Handbook (by Green Ronin)? Apparently that book was quite well designed and received.
What may "allow" a book on deities with stats to work better would be a competently designed epic scaling system, but that may be a tricky proposition in itself.

[arguskos]

Personal Method: I stat whatever I need to. If my players actually make a legit challenge to the God of Death and Stabbity Pain, then I'll stat him out. He'll be absurdly overpowered and nigh-unkillable, but hell, it's their choice to call him out and be all "yo god of death and stabbity pain, I think I'm better at both than you, come and get it bitch!" I always give warnings before letting players do such stupid behavior, but ok then, you've been warned and are powerful enough to actually serve as a challenge for more than five seconds. Have fun.

Practically speaking, I barely stat any such thing. Most deity-level and up beings exist on such a vastly removed plane of existence that players never have to interact with them. It's the "any sufficiently advanced tech=magic" theory at work. Gods and other such cosmic powers are so mind-bogglingly strong that stats just aren't needed. Anything that players would have to deal with from them wouldn't be of note to the beings in question. Such petty things are wish loops or whatever are of no concern to cosmic entities.

That said, I do have a hierarchy of god-like creatures and cosmic entities on hand, just in case my players ever want to do a cosmic-level campaign.

[Amiel]

Thanks for your post, Arguskos, it is well written as always :)

I also subscribe somewhat to your line of thinking (though I also tend to place too much on my plate and try to create a cosmology with too many entities therein; and then suffer from attention deficient disorder).


What's probably or may probably be a tad off-putting in designing high CR entities is the temporal requirement; designing them (replete with "creative" salient abilities and qualities) is an investment in time. But the end result makes it all worthwhile in the end

[Adamaro]

I think gods do not need stats. IMO god is like a human vs. a rat. No matter what rat does, in the end you will always win, due to strenght and size, but mostly inteligence/insight.

Anything that has stats can be killed.

First of all, Pun-Pun can not be killed. Second of all as a god, you can invent unique powers and feats. Say a wizard pops into your plane and kills you. You just change the past. Godly is after all - godly.

Epic monsters are waaaaaay too weak. CR-wise and generally-wise. I mean devastation beetle of CR 50 can not even fly and has no true seeing. For it to be interesting I had to add to it at least a corrosive-gas emmiting ability (can not be penetrated by true seeing, but bug got Blindsight 1200 feet) and CL 50 AMF. In the end it still died to PCs lvl 20 batmans.

[Runestar]

Say a wizard pops into your plane and kills you. You just change the past. Godly is after all - godly.

Are there actually mechanics to support this? It says a lot when you have to resort to DM fiat just to prevent a monster (even a god) from being killed by the PCs.

[Adamaro]

@Runestar
As a god you can make such a feat/power. That's my point. Enemies in D&D 3.5 above say, CR 14, were created by nimwits, that's why such stuff is IMO ok. And even such things can be penetrated by a lvl 20 batman.

[Tyndmyr]

Anything without stats isn't really a thing, it's a plot device. You need to really define capabilities to represent people in any realistic fashion.

I have no trouble in statting up a CR 40 diety, even if there is no possible way the party is ever going to challenge them. Why? Because it keeps his abilities consistant, and avoids the problem of accidentally making an implausible or contradictory bit due to not planning ahead. If somethings gonna be a major part of the campaign, spend the time to consider carefully what it's capabilities are, and stat accordingly.

Edit: Also, avoid time hopping. Seriously. Even in a game as powerful as D&D, it's mostly avoided for good reason. It makes for horribly complex campaigns, if it's something serious. If you set a precident for time travel, your players may realize that there's a 9th level spell that lets THEM go back in time and change the past. Suddenly, you have a lot of paradox silliness upon which the entire campaign depends. No, no...avoid using time travel fiat gods in the first place.