ultimate magus + elf wizard racial sub = ?

[SylvanPrincess]

is an elf racial sub wizard/sorcerer/ultimate magus awesome? it seems with the extra spells the elf wiz sub level gets, that the magus's sac a spell to apply a metamagic feat gets extra ammo. also, was thinking about throwing seul arcanamach in there for flavor- and the magus could increase the arcanamachs spell list too perhaps. i dont have time to truly think this over, i am running off to work. any response would be nice though :)

[Eldariel]

is an elf racial sub wizard/sorcerer/ultimate magus awesome? it seems with the extra spells the elf wiz sub level gets, that the magus's sac a spell to apply a metamagic feat gets extra ammo. also, was thinking about throwing seul arcanamach in there for flavor- and the magus could increase the arcanamachs spell list too perhaps. i dont have time to truly think this over, i am running off to work. any response would be nice though :)

Depends. Ultimate Magus is awesome or not depending on how many levels in the primary casting class (generally the prepared one since you need 2nd level prepared spells to enter) you can squeeze out of it. If you get full 10/10, it's very good while if the "lower casting level" level-ups get applied to the other class, you tend to get left a tad behind.

The Elven Racial Sub is quite decent but simple specialization is better; the Racial Sub is more suited for ensuring you have enough slots at your highest level to bringeth the pain, while Ultimate Magus ideally just wants a large amount of slots on all levels. Oh, and generally it's preferable to combine classes that cast off the same stat, like Wizard and Beguiler [PHBII]; this gets you fully Intelligence-based casting for example.


But yeah, Ultimate Magus in and of itself can be quite good. Wizard/Sorcerer without e.g. Practiced Spellcaster: Sorcerer to apply more of the casting to Wizard though? You'll start to hurt for those caster levels.

[jiriku]

Suel Arcanomach + Ultimate Magus is a good strategy, because you climb rapidly up a fairly short progression. Elf racial sub is actually pretty good in ANY kind of generalist wizard build. You could produce a pretty effective character this way, although 'tis a shame that you'll miss out on the cool SA class features.

[gbprime]

Heck, if Ultimate Magus is your goal, even Warmage is a good fit. Your wizard repertoire makes up for their abysmal spell choices, and they have no need for meta-magics like Searing Spell or Energy Substitution that Sorcerers thrive on.

[Yuki Akuma]

If you're going to be a generalist, and you're an elf, there's no reason not to take the racial sub level.

But specialists get more spell slots - focused specialists especially. You can use your Sorcerer casting to fill any gaps.

[Tyndmyr]

Is there any particular reason you can't mix elven generalist with domain wizard, since you're technically still a generalist then?

I would worry less about total spell slots if you're taking a theurge route. I'd rather have versatility on my prepared side, since you'll already have a great number of spell slots on the other for endurance. Generalist/Warmage isn't a bad idea...though tbh, in that situation, banning evocation is really, really easy to do. So, there's relatively little to lose in going at least div specialist, if you're not an elf and/or domain wizard isn't available.

[Swooper]

I'm a fan of beguiler/wizard UM builds myself. Makes specializing out of Illusion and Enchantment so much less painful.

[gbprime]

Is there any particular reason you can't mix elven generalist with domain wizard, since you're technically still a generalist then?

No restriction on it at all. It's an excellent way to get yet another spell per day and spell known out of a generalist, even if you have little choice about what goes IN that slot.

[Kansaschaser]

I'm a fan of beguiler/wizard UM builds myself. Makes specializing out of Illusion and Enchantment so much less painful.

Yes! It's a great combo because they are both based on Intelligence too. I've actually played a Beguilar 4 / Wizard 6 / Ultimate Magus 10 and it was a ton of fun. With the right metamagic feats, it's a very fun combination.

I had my DM scratching his head several times. Eventually, he just kept adding lots of anti-magic fields to hamper my abilities.

[SylvanPrincess]

thanks for all the responses everyone :)

what would the the build look like if i could add seul arcanamach to it then? i looked at the beguiler, and the warmage, and i lean toward the warmage, because i dont see why the beguilers spell list is so special. theres a lot there for sneaking, but no big badaboom! maybe its too early in the morning to think about this yet...

the other option i see might be duskblade? *rubs eyes* yawn

[Eldariel]

thanks for all the responses everyone :)

what would the the build look like if i could add seul arcanamach to it then? i looked at the beguiler, and the warmage, and i lean toward the warmage, because i dont see why the beguilers spell list is so special. theres a lot there for sneaking, but no big badaboom! maybe its too early in the morning to think about this yet...

the other option i see might be duskblade? *rubs eyes* yawn

If you really want "big badaboom", you'll want to cast it from the Wizard-size since your caster level for Wizard-spells will be higher and you'll have access to higher level Wizard spells (not to even mention that the most awesome spells are hardly boombooms). And deriving both your casting lists off Intelligence is very, very good.

That's why Beguiler is so commonly suggested in a nutshell; it gets you both castings off the same stat and allows you to specialize easily with Wizard as it covers your Enchantment and sorta Illusion needs. And it provides you with many spells that don't grow obsolete over time; Mirror Image, Displacement, Glitterdust and company maintain their potency throughout the game. And it still fuels slots for Wizard-spells to metamagic with nicely; more than others, in fact, since you get more bonus slots from your massive Int.

[SylvanPrincess]

thanks for the splanation :) youre right , plus it gives trapfinding. so should it be beguiler 1/elf racial wiz 3/ultimate magus 10? how should the arcanamach be slipped in there? is it worth it? seems like it would just be lowering the overall caster level

[Eldariel]

thanks for the splanation :) youre right , plus it gives trapfinding. so should it be beguiler 1/elf racial wiz 3/ultimate magus 10? how should the arcanamach be slipped in there? is it worth it? seems like it would just be lowering the overall caster level

Arcanamach is an option, not an addition. It's a fine spontaneous casting class, but you don't need two different ones. Either go Beguiler/Wizard or Wizard/Suel Arcanamach. Ultimate Magus can only advance one or the other. Note that Suel Arcanamach is Charisma-based which is a strike against it. It would get you about the same level of spells as Beguiler so the advantages aren't that huge. That said, it's a decent alternative if you feel so inclined (if a bit tricky to enter). And unless I'm misremembering my entry prerequisites, you'll need Beguiler 1/Wizard 4 to enter Ultimate Magus. But yeah, that's the entry I suggest.

A more powerful option is Nar Demonbinder from Unapproachable East; it's a fast progression class so you'll get very high level slots from it (it caps out at 8th level, something few other Sublime Chord builds could get from the secondary class). It's Charisma-based but the high level slots make up for the lost slots from stat synergy. That would be like Wizard 6/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus 10. It's a fine build and definitely among the most powerful options, but much depends on if you have access to Unapproachable East and whether you like Beguiler better than that ('cause you'll have to admit, Beguiler is an incredibly elegant combination with Wizard).

[SylvanPrincess]

yeah, beguiler is sexy for sure. i have good numbers, so im not too worried about a cha caster (18, 18, 16, 14, 11, 9), but yeah, beguiler is nice. i kinda wanted to make it a bit of a gish, and i feel that with my numbers i could, but maybe i shouldnt?

the unapproachable east option sounds cool too, but i dont think ill go that route.

the prereqs for magus are spellcraft 8 ranks, knowledge arcana 4 ranks, any metamagic feat, ability to spontaneously cast 1st lev spells, and cast 2nd lev spelss from a spell book.

[Eldariel]

yeah, beguiler is sexy for sure. i have good numbers, so im not too worried about a cha caster (18, 18, 16, 14, 11, 9), but yeah, beguiler is nice. i kinda wanted to make it a bit of a gish, and i feel that with my numbers i could, but maybe i shouldnt?

the unapproachable east option sounds cool too, but i dont think ill go that route.

the prereqs for magus are spellcraft 8 ranks, knowledge arcana 4 ranks, any metamagic feat, ability to spontaneously cast 1st lev spells, and cast 2nd lev spelss from a spell book.

You could, definitely. The issue is however that Ultimate Magus isn't really kind for gishing. It's gonna take 10 levels of your build and provide ½ BAB over those levels along with d4 HD and no combat abilities. Your base classes do the same; Wizard is ½ BAB, and most arcane casters are ½ BAB.

You could brute force Gish, certainly; pick up Persistent Spell, Arcane Disciple a domain like War that grants Divine Power, Persist Divine Power with Ultimate Magus abilities and cast buff spells. Hell, you could brute force it without divine power; just cast lots of buffs on the calibre of Wraithstrike, Polymorph and company and you won't need BAB to gish. But that's you fighting solely on the power of your spells (and maybe Arcane Strike or Knowledge Devotion); the classes don't synergise with that.

If that's ok with you, go ahead, pick up Arcane Disciple: War with at least 14 Wisdom, pick up Persistent Spell, and by Ultimate Magus 8 you could burn a 6th level Wizard-slot to persist Divine Power. And any other buffs you feel like that can be persisted from the lower level slots (don't forget, Ultimate Magus transfers spells from your Wizard-list to your spontaneous side so you can use the higher level slots from Wizard to persist as necessary). Add Arcane Strike and Knowledge Devotion and you're Gish Incarnate. Though of course, your ability is spell-based. Still, you'll be scary indeed.

[SylvanPrincess]

wow, i have never seen arcane disciple, totally cool! that means i could be a healer as well right? our party lacks a healer, the way it stands now. hmm....

If that's ok with you, go ahead, pick up Arcane Disciple: War with at least 14 Wisdom, pick up Persistent Spell, and by Ultimate Magus 8 you could burn a 6th level Wizard-slot to persist Divine Power. And any other buffs you feel like that can be persisted from the lower level slots (don't forget, Ultimate Magus transfers spells from your Wizard-list to your spontaneous side so you can use the higher level slots from Wizard to persist as necessary). Add Arcane Strike and Knowledge Devotion and you're Gish Incarnate. Though of course, your ability is spell-based. Still, you'll be scary indeed.

this is awesome :)

[Eldariel]

wow, i have never seen arcane disciple, totally cool! that means i could be a healer as well right? our party lacks a healer, the way it stands now. hmm....

Certainly but you only have so many feats. If you wish, you could try to acquire Lesser Vigor and Heal in class; the rest don't really matter. Though honestly, Use Magic Device is a class skill for Ultimate Magus and Beguiler; you can UMD those Wands (also Wands of Restoration and Lesser Restoration) and just cast Heals from Scrolls as necessary. That's probably the easiest way to go.

[Keld Denar]

Suel Arcanamach UMs, while a decent idea in theory, doesn't work too well. You need a BAB +6 in order to get into Suel, and thats gonna be tough to swing without losing any more CLs than you would already.

[Fouredged Sword]

Consider a one level dip of spellthief and the master spellthief feat. It will trow your caster level through the roof when you stack all arcane casting classes for caster level. You trade one level of spell progresion for much more powerful spells. You also get to steal spells through sneak attacking and cast in light armor.

[Keld Denar]

Me and Fax Celestis went through UM + Master Spellthief about 2 years ago. The problem with that is that Spellthief doesn't get any casting until level 4, which means you'd have to have something like Spellthief4/Wizard1/UM10 using an early entry option for your wizard casting like Precious Apprentice or Sanctum Spell.

Once you get it off the ground, though, you can do some cool stuff. You can use Versatile Spellcaster to burn a slot off your Spellthief side to turn it into Cloud of Knives (because you know CoK on your prepared side), then pop a 6th level wizard slot to persist it. Now you have a free action attack roll EVERY ROUND, and you CAN use it to steal spells provided your foe is flat footed. The other nice thing is that Spellthief4 allows you to burn stolen spells to cast your OWN spells. Combine with the above persistant CoK trick and you an steal enough spells per encounter that in most cases you won't even have to cast any of your prepared spells! Just burn off that stolen spell powah for GREAT JUSTICE!

etc etc etc

[Fouredged Sword]

You dip spellthief 1, then go into a wizard / other caster UM. The spellthief has no casting yet, so does not effect UM. This allows you to take the master spellthief feat. This is what you really want. It stacks Caster level for ALL arcane casting classes. The wording can be read to mean one of two things.

A - your levels in all arcane casting classes stack for arcane casting caster level
-You sum your levels in all arcane casting classes and compare that to the CL you would have in each class at that level of purely that class.

B - your levels in all arcane casting classes stack for arcane casting caster level
- You sum your caster levels to determine your total caster level.

I find myself leaning twards the first reading, but I have known people who lean twards the second. Ask your DM for clarification.

This handily gets around the caster level split that grants a casting level to your LOWEST caster level each level, as all your caster levels are the same regardless of whatever class you have more levels in, so you can place that level wherever you wish (you want to max out your wizard casting).

[Endarire]

It's more theoretical, but I like Ultimate Magus on Wizards for double advancing Wizard.

Take Spontaneous Divination or another means of getting spontaneous casting with Wizard.

I've never played it, and I'm a bit loathe to, considering the power level.

[Andion Isurand]

I'd prefeer the domain wizard ACF over the benefit of the first elven wizard subsitution level, assuming they are not allowed to stack.

[gbprime]

I'd prefeer the domain wizard ACF over the benefit of the first elven wizard subsitution level, assuming they are not allowed to stack.

They stack. Take both.

[SylvanPrincess]

so, the other combo i am considering, is a pally/champion of corellon/seul arcanamach, any thoughts about this combo? i think itd be pretty strong, and fun.