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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    We all know that 3rd edition's multiclass system is broken, in the most useless and pathetic way possible. Mostly this is due to the rule that character level equals total class level. This means that a 6th level monk/5th level wizard is considered to be just as powerful or useful as an 11th level druid. Which is untrue. Not only are the two characters not even close in terms of power and usefulness, the former has generalized himself into weakness and become a liability.

    In much of fiction you have powerful sorcerers who are also accomplished warriors, like Elric of Melnibone and others of his ilk. This of course is all but impossible in 3E, aside from various patches, like dual progression prestige classes and gestalt. So I've devised what I hope to be an adequate multiclassing alternative, very loosely based off 1st and 2nd edition dual classing and using advancement tables pulled from Pathfinder.

    Before you can take a level in any other class you must reach at least third level in your current class. This is also true for adding more classes after the second class. So you need three levels in your first class to take on your second class, three levels in your second class to attain the first level in your third class and so on.
    You also require some sort of training in your new class to take the first level in it. Whether this tutoring comes from a party member or NPC (of at least third level in what ever class you wish to gain), tomes and training devices or in somesort of vision quest.This training period lasts for two months for fast progression classes, four months for medium progression and six months for slow progression classes.

    Slow The slow progression is reserved for the most powerful of classes, those from Tier 1 to Tier 2. This includes the cleric, wizard, druid, sorcerer, psion and wilder. Most likely the ardent as well. Because of their power, these classes take longer to advance in than even the medium progression classes. Not only for balance reasons but due to the simple fact these classes take more time and effort to truly master. The slow progression is also used to determine total character level too.

    Medium Classes in this category include the beguiler, dread necromancer, bard, warblade, crusader and swordsage classes. Other Tier 3 classes would also use the medium progression.

    Fast This grouping consists of Tier 4 to upper Tier 5 classes such as the rogue, barbarian and warlock classes.

    {table=head]Level|Slow|Medium|Fast
    1st|-|-|-
    2nd|3,000|2,000|1,300
    3rd|7,500|5,000|3,300
    4th|14,000|9,000|6,000
    5th|23,000|15,000|10,000
    6th|35,000|23,000|15,000
    7th|53,000|35,000|23,000
    8th|77,000|51,000|34,000
    9th|115,000|75,000|50,000
    10th|160,000|105,000|71,000
    11th|235,000|155,000|105,000
    12th|330,000|220,000|145,000
    13th|475,000|315,000|210,000
    14th|665,000|445,000|295,000
    15th|955,000|635,000|425,000
    16th|1,350,000|890,000|600,000
    17th|1,900,000|1,300,000|850,000
    18th|2,700,000|1,800,000|1,200,000
    19th|3,850,000|2,550,000|1,700,000
    20th|5,350,000|3,600,000|2,400,000[/table]

    Total class level is found by adding the separate experience points of all classes gained together and comparing them result to the slow progression. So if you have a character with 330,000 experience points he or she is a 12th level character, regardless of his or her actual class levels.

    Hit points, BAB, Saves and other non-class specific features, or no they don't stack.
    Just before you think this is going to give any character more hit dice, skill points or a higher BAB than thei fellow party members, don't worry. Let's you have a 6th level monk/5th level wizard. While he or she would be a 6th level character this doesn't mean that he or she will have 11 hit dice, a BAB of +6, 32 skill points not including intelligence bonus and first level multipliers, or saves of +6/+6/+9 at just 6th character level. Instead all hit dice, skill points, BAB advancements and class based saving throw improvements overlap.

    Okay, then I've just posted this new multiclassing rule/experience rule change. I accept your criticisms, but please don't savage me too much.
    Last edited by Agrippa; 2010-12-13 at 04:36 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    If the Fast progression is for Tier 4 and "upper" Tier 5, what about "lower" Tier 5 and Tier 6?
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-Bark View Post
    If the Fast progression is for Tier 4 and "upper" Tier 5, what about "lower" Tier 5 and Tier 6?
    What about them? Maybe you can fit the healer class into the fast progression track.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    I don't know if this is the right way to go about this. After all, then you have to make additional columns for level-adjusted characters. Unless you do it the easy way like I do and tack on a flat penalty to each level (1000 XP per Level Adjustment per Level is what I use).

    But anyway, do you think it's more important for the Monk 11 to be balanced with the Wizard 11 then the Monk 5 / Wizard 6 with the Druid 11? I don't know if you're accomplishing what you want to accomplish here.

    Personally, one of the things I've been playing with is taking the Tome of Battle's rules for multiclassing and applying them to all combat systems (Vestiges, Spellcasting, Manifesting, etc). The idea being that 1/2 your levels in another class are added to a class's initiator / caster / manifester /binder / etc level. But then again, I play a variant where all martial classes are adepts, so that might not help you :).

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden-Esque View Post
    I don't know if this is the right way to go about this. After all, then you have to make additional columns for level-adjusted characters. Unless you do it the easy way like I do and tack on a flat penalty to each level (1000 XP per Level Adjustment per Level is what I use).
    I've never realy thought much about it but a 1,000 point per level adjustment seem fair to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden-Esque View Post
    But anyway, do you think it's more important for the Monk 11 to be balanced with the Wizard 11 then the Monk 5 / Wizard 6 with the Druid 11? I don't know if you're accomplishing what you want to accomplish here.
    First, under this system, the monk 5/wizard 6 would barely be above the sixth character level and 5,000 experience points away from character level 7. Second, the thirteenth level monk would be balanced against the 11th level wizard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden-Esque View Post
    Personally, one of the things I've been playing with is taking the Tome of Battle's rules for multiclassing and applying them to all combat systems (Vestiges, Spellcasting, Manifesting, etc). The idea being that 1/2 your levels in another class are added to a class's initiator / caster / manifester /binder / etc level. But then again, I play a variant where all martial classes are adepts, so that might not help you :).
    I understand. We just have differnt methods of trying to bring sanity to character advancement. I'm also thinking about eliminating all Tome of Battle classes and just giving theirm maneuvers and progression to warrior (full BAB) other classes as I see fit.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    I understand. We just have different methods of trying to bring sanity to character advancement. I'm also thinking about eliminating all Tome of Battle classes and just giving theirm maneuvers and progression to warrior (full BAB) other classes as I see fit.
    That's what I did, except I kept the Swordsage. In my campaigns, the Swordsage is like the Wizard of martial arts; all his class features revolve around initiating maneuvers better then any other adept. The flip side being that I don't allow the special actions to recharge maneuvers in combat.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden-Esque View Post
    That's what I did, except I kept the Swordsage. In my campaigns, the Swordsage is like the Wizard of martial arts; all his class features revolve around initiating maneuvers better then any other adept. The flip side being that I don't allow the special actions to recharge maneuvers in combat.
    I've also been thinking of something like that too. Just how to keep the swordsage features without the class...

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    I just added a clause on how hit dice and the like overlap instead of stacking. I might need some help editing it for clairity.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    Epic Advancement
    There comes a point in some, albeit it not most, adventuring careers in which these heroes become almost like gods themselves. If not having already ascended to such lofty hieghts. Thier battles are epic and titanic clashes whose repercusions and memories will echo through out all time.

    To begin taking epic levels in any class you must first achieve 20th character level. This often will require multiclassing to accomplish.

    {table=head]Level|Slow|Medium|Fast
    21st|10,350,000|5,700,000|3,800,000
    22nd|20,350,000|9,900,000|6,600,000
    23rd|40,350,000|17,300,000|12,200,000
    24th|80,350,000|34,100,000|17,800,000
    25th|120,350,000|69,700,000|29,000,000
    26th|200,350,000|140,900,000|53,400,000
    27th|360,350,000|71,200,000|48,800,000
    28th|380,350,000|142,400,000|97,600,000
    29th|700,350,000|284,800,000|193,200,000
    30th|1,340,350,000|569,600,000|386,400,000
    31st|2,620,350,000|1,039,200,000|772,800,000
    32nd|5,380,350,000|2,078,400,000|1,545,600,000
    33rd|8,140,350,000|4,156,800,000|3,092,200,000
    34th|13,660,350,000|8,313,600,000|6,184,400,000
    35th|24,700,350,000|16,627,200,000|12,378,800,000
    36th|46,780,350,000|33,254,400,000|24,757,600,000
    37th|90,940,350,000|66,508,800,000|49,515,200,000
    38th|179,260,350,000|133,017,600,000|99,030,400,00 0
    39th|355,900,350,000|266,035,200,000|198,060,800,0 00
    40th|709,180,350,000|532,070,400,000|396,121,600,0 00
    41st|1,415,740,350,000|1,064,140,800,000|792,243,2 00,000
    42nd|2,828,860,350,000|2,128,281,600,000|1,484,486 ,400,000
    43rd|5,655,720,350,000|4,256,563,200,000|2,968,972 ,800,000
    44th|11,307,580,000|8,513,126,400,000|5,937,945,60 0,000
    45th|22,623,540,000|17,026,252,800,000|11,875,891, 200,000[/table]
    Last edited by Agrippa; 2010-12-13 at 04:36 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    To test out this new multiclassing system, and just for fun, I've decieded to type up and post a character using these rules. I'd just like to know what anyone here thinks of this attempt. The only problem right now is I don't know what to outfit her with. She'll obviously be wearing some sort of leather or other light armor, wielding two guns and a short spear that I'd like to double as a staff. She'll also need her spell and prayerbooks filled. I recomend giving her the standard allotment of either a 7th ECL PC or 7th ECL NPC.

    Spoiler
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    Anastasia Moreau (CR 7)
    Neutral Good medium humanoid (human)
    Class Wizard 6, Archivist 5, Swordsage 5
    Character Level 7th, experience points: 74,749
    ________________
    Pre-Combat
    Init: +12 (+2 dex, +4 wis, +4 Improved Initiative, +2 Quick to Act); Senses: Spot: +11
    Languages: Native, three others
    ________________
    Defense
    AC 21; touch 16; flat-footed 19
    (+2 Dex, 5+ Armor, +4 Wis)
    HP 42 (5d8+1d4+12 HD); DR none
    Immune none; Resist none; Weak none
    Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +9
    SR none
    SQ Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus and insightful strike with Black Rain), Dark Knowledge, Loremastery and Still Mind.
    ________________
    Offense
    Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
    Melee +3 with spear, 1d6 points of damage, +1/-1 dual wielding kukri
    Ranged +6 or +4/+2, 2d4+1 points of damage
    Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft./10 ft.
    BAB +3; Grp +3
    Attack Options
    Maneuvers: Blossom of Iron Petals, Azure Battle Mandala, Deceitful Dance, Insightful Strike, Claw at the Moon, Soaring Raptor Strike, Shocking Blade; wizard and archivist spells. Can ready up to six maneuvers.
    Wizard Spells typically prepared: 0-light, detect magic, mage hand and ghost sound
    1st-obscuring mist, ray of enfeeblement, feather fall or comprehend languages and mage armor
    2nd-blur, levitate, blur and glitterdust
    3rd-magic circle against evil, summon monster III and wind wall or dispel magic
    Archivist Spells prepared: 0-purify food and drink, create water, detec poison and guidence
    1st-deathwatch, entropic shield, cure light wounds x2 and remove fear
    2nd-augury, cure moderate wounds, remove paraylsis x2
    3rd-sepak with the dead and remove disease x2
    Wizard spells: 0-all core: 1st-mage armor, obscuring mist, comprehend languages, burning hands, ray of enfeeblement, feather fall, identify, shield: 2nd-continual flame, blur, levitate, glitterdust: 3rd-dispel magic, magic cicle against evil, summon monster III, wind wall 32 1/2/100 pages used.
    Archivist spells: 0-all core: 1st-bless, bless water, cure light wounds, deathwatch, entropic shield, remove fear, sanctuary, shield of faith, cause fear: 2nd-augury, gentle repose, remove paralysis, cure moderate wounds (base of 3d8+3 up to 3d8+15 instead of core standard): 3rd-speak with the dead, remove disease 27 1/2/100 spells.
    Special Actions
    Maneuvers: Gather the Storm, Graceful Instinct, Mind Over Body.
    Maneuvers Known: Gather the Storm, Blossom of Iron Petals, Azure Battle Mandala, Deceitful Dance, Graceful Instinct, Insightful Strike, Mind Over Body, Claw at the Moon, Soaring Raptor Strike, Shocking Blade
    Stances Known: Blood in the Water, Storm's Blessing, Leaping Dragon Stance
    Combat Gear +3 glamoured leather armor, +1 spear, two +1 pistol revolvers, 30 bullets, two kukri
    ________________
    Post-Combat
    Death: none.
    Linger: none.
    Treasure: +3 glamoured leather armor, +1 spear, two +1 pistol revolvers, 30 bullets, two kukri, adventurer's sash, outfits (artisan's, cold-weather, explorer and hot weather), cleats, masterwork backpack, waterproof bag, bedroll, winter blanket, three flasks, ten foot pole, two scabards, 10 sacks, area map, four traveling spellbooks, stationary, 4 inkpens, 10 1 oz. vials of ink, portrait book, spell component pouch, magnifying glass, alchemist's kit, abacus: 4,097 gold pieces, 3 silver pieces and 3 copper pieces left.
    ________________
    Other
    Abilities Str 10 (0), Dex 15 (+2), Con 14 (+2) (base 13, +1 levels), Int 17 (+3), Wis 18 (+4) (base 16, +2 human), Cha 13 (+1)
    Skills Knowledge (religion) rank 7 (Bonus: +12), Knowledge (arcana) rank 7 (Bonus: +10), Knowledge (dungeoneering) rank 4 (bonus: +7), Knowledge (history) rank 6 (Bonus: +9), Concentration rank 3 (Bonus: +5), Craft (alchemy) rank 7 (Bonus: +12), Balance rank 2 (Bonus: +4), Jump rank 8 (Bonus: +8), Intimidate rank 7 (Bonus: +8), Perform (dance) rank 8 (Bonus: +10), Spot rank 7 (Bonus: +11), Decipher Script rank 7 (Bonus:
    +15), Move Silently rank 6 (Bonus: +8), Hide rank 3 (Bonus: +5), Spellcraft rank 4 (Bonus: +7)
    ________________
    Feats
    Scribe Scroll (Wizard bonus): Anastasia can create a scroll of any spell that she knows. Scribing a scroll takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a scroll is its spell level × its caster level × 25 gp. To scribe a scroll, Anastasia must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price.

    Any scroll that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, Anastasia must expend the material component or pay the XP when scribing the scroll.
    Dodge (racial bonus): During Anastasia's action, she can designate two opponents and receive a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class or Reflex saves against attacks from that opponent. She can select new opponents on any action.

    A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses.
    Eschew Materials: Anastasia can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. (The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.) If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, she must
    have the material component at hand to cast the spell, just as normal.
    Improved Initiative: Anastasia a +4 bonus on initiative checks.
    Skill Focus (Decipher Script): Anastasia gains a +3 bonus on all Decipher Script checks.
    Adaptive Style: Anastasia can change her readied maneuvers at any time with a full-round action.
    Enlarge Spell (Wizard Bonus): Anastasia can alter a spell with a range of close, medium, or long to increase its range by 100%. An enlarged spell with a range of close now has a range of 50 ft. + 5 ft./level, while medium-range spells have a range of 200 ft. + 20 ft./level and long-range spells have a range of 800 ft. + 80 ft./level. An enlarged spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.

    Spells whose ranges are not defined by distance, as well as spells whose ranges are not close, medium, or long, do not have increased ranges.
    Two-Weapon Fighting: Anastasia's penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for Anastasia's primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for her off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.
    Combat Reflexes: Anastasia may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to her Dexterity bonus. In this case two.

    With this feat, Anastasia may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
    ________________
    Abilities
    Dark knowledge (tactics) 4/day: When fighting against supernatural horrors and upon a suitable Knowledge check Anastasia knows the general combat behaviors of creatures of that race, granting her allies a +1 bonus on attack rolls made against them. For example, if Anastasia was confronted by corruption eaters and succeeded on her Knowledge (dungeoneering) check she would grant her allies the attack bonus against all the corruption eaters they fought in that encounter. If Anastasia succeeds on her Knowledge check by 10 or more, then this bonus increases to +2. If Anastasia succeeds on her Knowledge check by 20 or more, then this bonus increases to +3.
    Lore mastery: Anastasia has a +2 bonus on all Decipher Script checks and on all checks of Knowledge (religion).
    Still mind: Anastasia a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of enchantment, due to her rigorous focus and intense mental discipline.
    Dark knowledge 4/day (puissance): Anastasia can use her dark knowledge to help her allies fight off the corrupting influence of other creatures. Allies within 60 feet of Anastasia gain a +1 bonus on saving throws against the affected creature's abilities. If Anastasia succeeds on her
    Knowledge check by 10 or more, this bonus increases to +2. If she succeeds on her Knowledge check by 20 or more, this bonus increases to +3.
    Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus): Anastasia has the benefit of the Weapon Focus for all Black Rain Related weapons.
    Discipline Focus (insightful strike): Anastasia adds her Wisdom bonus of +4 to all attacks with Black Rain related weapons.
    Last edited by Agrippa; 2011-07-15 at 01:50 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    I like this idea, but it would take some work to see if it really works. In the meantime, you might like this old post of mine.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    I like this idea, but it would take some work to see if it really works. In the meantime, you might like this old post of mine.
    It looks somewhat like the old 1st. and 2nd. Edition multiclassing rules to me.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    Ok, looking this over, I'm not sure it is balanced. Unless I'm mistaken, if you take two classes of the same level and tier you aren't quite 2 levels behind. So a 10th level Barbarian/Rogue is not quite 12th level. Let's just call it 12th level for the sake of simplicity. What does such a character have?
    1. Assuming a 14 Con and average die rolls 90 hp. Versus 107 for a straight Barbarian or 68 for a Rogue. Fair enough, better than the Rogue but worse than the Barbarian. A Barbarian 6/Rogue 6 using the normal system gets 89, assuming Barbarian start. Interestingly the higher the Con the worse off your mutliclassing is.
    2. +7 Fort + 7 Ref +3 Will. Versus +8 Fort +4 Ref +4 Will for a straight Barbarian, +4 Fort +8 Ref +4 Will for a straight Rogue, or +7 Fort +7 Ref +4 Will for a normal Rogue 6/Barbarian 6. Okay, normal mutliclassing works out better. That's normal though, mutliclassing makes for awesome saves. Your version is actually more balanced here methinks.
    3. Assuming Int of 14 (a little high for such a character, but whatever) 130 skill points vs 150 for a straight Rogue or 90 for a straight Barbarian. A regular Rogue 6/Barbarian 6 gets 126. Your version improves if the reference Int is lower.
    4. +10/+5 BAB. Versus +12/+7/+2 for a straight Barbarian or +7/+2 for a Rogue. A Rogue 6/Barbarian 6 is also +10/+5.
    CONCLUSION: I can see why you chose it to be about 2 levels behind. In this case stats like BAB, Hit Points, Skill Points, etc. work out more or less correctly. A Wizard/Sorcerer would or similar case where the "good" stats overlap would however be weaker in your system. This isn't, by and large, what I am worried about. Now lets look at class abilities.
    5. Fast Movement. Not terribly powerful, a Rogue 6/Barbarian 6 would also have this.
    6. Improved Uncanny Dodge. One has to rule how this stacks between the two classes.
    7. Trap Sense +3/+6/+4. Again, how does this stack?
    8. Damage Reduction 2/-. Rogue 6/Barbarian 6 doesn't even have 1/-.
    9. Rage 3/day. One more than a Rogue 6/Barbarian 6. Admittedly a Barbarian 12 would have Greater Rage and could rage 4/day, so I'm not sure this is such boon, and Extra Rage is cheap.
    10. No Illiteracy. Any mutliclassing would result in this.
    11. Sneak Attack +5d6. 1d6 less than straight Rogue, but 2d6 more than Rogue 6/Barbarian 6.
    12. Evasion. Again, big deal.
    13. Trapfinding. Again, big deal.
    14. Rogue Special Ability. Not that strong, but a Rogue 6/Barbarian 6 doesn't get this.
    CONCLUSION: Definitely stronger than Rogue 6/Barbarian 6. Is it stronger than Rogue 12 or Barbarian 12? Well, all Rogue 12 has on this is +1d6 Sneak Attack, +1 Reflex, and 20 skill points. So yeah, it is stronger than Rogue 12. The 1d6 Sneak Attack is weaker than the damage bonus from Rage, not to mention the better BAB and starting next level more attacks per turn. Reflex isn't as important as Fortitude most of the time, and you get +4 to your fortitude. You will miss the 20 skill points, but the far superior combat ability should make up for that. What about Barbarian 12? Barbarian 12 has better Hit Points, more BAB (and attacks, till next level), a slightly better Fortitude save, Greater Rage, and Rage 4/day instead of 3/day. Not as clear here. +4 Reflex and Evasion might cancel out the hit point loss depending on what you are facing. 5d6 Sneak attack might equal all the offensive losses if you get to use it a lot. If you make use of UMD that might boost you a bit. You do gain massive out of combat utility. I'd say it is probably better.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    Under this system identical shared class features would overlap instead of stacking. So a rogue 10/barbarian 10 would get trap sense +3 and improved uncanny dodge at either rogue level 8 or barbarian level 5. Also ECL (effective character level) is determined by measuring the experience total of all combined classes against the slow progression. This means that a ninth level wizard, a 12th level rogue or barbarian and a 10th level rogue/10th level barbarian count as ninth level characters.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    Under this system identical shared class features would overlap instead of stacking. So a rogue 10/barbarian 10 would get trap sense +3 and improved uncanny dodge at either rogue level 8 or barbarian level 5. Also ECL (effective character level) is determined by measuring the experience total of all combined classes against the slow progression. This means that a ninth level wizard, a 12th level rogue or barbarian and a 10th level rogue/10th level barbarian count as ninth level characters.
    Thanks for clearing up the part about overlapping class abilities. As for the last part, that makes more sense but doesn't change my analysis. I think a 10th level rogue/barbarian is better than a 12th level rogue or barbarian. Not sure whether it is as good as a 9th level wizard, probably depends on how well built the wizard is.
    By the way, how do prestige classes work?

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    Thanks for clearing up the part about overlapping class abilities. As for the last part, that makes more sense but doesn't change my analysis. I think a 10th level rogue/barbarian is better than a 12th level rogue or barbarian. Not sure whether it is as good as a 9th level wizard, probably depends on how well built the wizard is.
    By the way, how do prestige classes work?
    I'm not quite sure. Maybe they could work as feats, I don't know. Just give out feats at the rate of one every odd character level like in Pathfinder and it could work.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    I've already outfitted Anastasia quite a bit, but not as much as I like. That said, would anyone else try building a 7th level character using this advancement system? Maybe something involving warblade and totemist or perhaps binder. Just look up the tier system when building a character. Remember, tiers one and two use the slow progression, tier three classes use the medium progression and tier four and upper tier five classes (such as healer) use the fast progression.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    I've already outfitted Anastasia quite a bit, but not as much as I like. That said, would anyone else try building a 7th level character using this advancement system? Maybe something involving warblade and totemist or perhaps binder. Just look up the tier system when building a character. Remember, tiers one and two use the slow progression, tier three classes use the medium progression and tier four and upper tier five classes (such as healer) use the fast progression.
    Healer is not upper tier 5, at least not until 17th level. Also, I've realized first level doesn't have an xp cost. This makes some sense, since you start at 1st level, but doesn't that mean I can just take 1st level of every single non-conflicting class in the game before I even get any xp? Anyways, I'll make a 7th level character for you today. Maybe two.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    Okay then, here's this new multiclassing rule addition. Before you can take a level in any other class you must reach at least third level in your current class. This is also true for adding more classes after the second class. So you need three levels in your first class to take on your second class, three levels in your second class to attain the first level in your third class and so on.
    You also require some sort of training in your new class to take the first level in it. Whether this tutoring comes from a party member or NPC (of at least third level in what ever class you wish to gain), tomes and training devices or in somesort of vision quest. This training period lasts for two months for fast progression classes, four months for medium progression and six months for slow progression classes.

    P.S. I'm going to at least try to make healer an upper 5 to tier 4 class.
    Last edited by Agrippa; 2010-11-15 at 11:08 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    I'm waiting for your characters Drolyt. Oh, by the way, I'm using a dodge revision for Anastasia that grants a +1 bonus to AC and Reflex saving throws to a number of enemies per round equal to the characters Dexterity modifier. The dodge bonus rises by one point every five levels. If you are going to give your characters dodge I suggest you use that rewrite.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    I'm waiting for your characters Drolyt. Oh, by the way, I'm using a dodge revision for Anastasia that grants a +1 bonus to AC and Reflex saving throws to a number of enemies per round equal to the characters Dexterity modifier. The dodge bonus rises by one point every five levels. If you are going to give your characters dodge I suggest you use that rewrite.
    I've actually had a hell of a day, so I won't finish them till tomorrow. Sorry.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    I've actually had a hell of a day, so I won't finish them till tomorrow. Sorry.
    That's perfectly alright.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    Standing before you is a tall and imposing, if some what boyishly handsome, young man in dappled blue-gray armor with a long light-gray cape attatched his pauldrons. In his left hand is an arming sword and in his left a proudly held shield. Gazing in to his almost amber eyes gives you but barely a taste of what mystical powers and holy gifts he posseses. You detect neither arrogance nor self effacing in words or manerism, he simply thinks of himself as he truly is, no more no less. Few would guess at his sorcerous powers nor the signifigence runes etched into his armor, but that doesn't make them any less true or meaningful.

    Appearance:
    Background:
    Personality:

    Sir Birkley Cardonell, Knight of Storms (CR 15, maybe)
    Lawful Good medium humanoid (human)
    Class Warblade 13, Psion (seer) 13, Paladin 13
    Character Level 15th, experience points: 1,254,364
    ________________
    Pre-Combat
    Init: +5 (+1 dex, +4 Improved Initiative); Senses: Spot +7
    Languages: Native, two others
    ________________
    Defense
    AC 11; touch 11; flat-footed 10
    (+1 Dex, + Armor)
    HP 167 (13d12+67 HD); DR none
    Immune fear and disease; Resist none; Weak none
    Fort +13 Ref +8 Will +12
    SR none
    SQ Aura of Good, Divine Grace, Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Battle Clairity, Weapon Aptitude, Improved Uncany Dodge, Battle Ardor, Battle Cunning, Battle Skill
    ________________
    Offense
    Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
    Melee +15/+10/+5
    Ranged +13
    Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft./10 ft.
    BAB +13; Grp +15
    Attack Options Smite Evil 5/day,
    Maneuvers Readied: 5
    Maneuvers Known: Manticore Parry (replaces Wall of Blades), Exorcism of Steel, Adamantine Hurricane (replaces Steel Wind), Finishing Move, Leading the Attack, Clairion Call (replaces Lion's Roar), Order forged from Chaos, Boulder Roll, Ancient Mountain Hammer (replaces Mountain Hammer), Bonesplitting Strike
    Stances Known: Bolstering Voice, Tactics of the Wolf, Dancing Blade Form
    Psion Powers Known: 1: Call to Mind (mystic recall), Catfall, Conceal Thoughts (mask mind), Defenesive Prcognition (danger awareness), Precognition (omen of success), Offensive Precognition (anticipate defense) 2: Biofeedback (endure suffering), Clairvoyant Sense (scrying), Concussion Blast (crushing will), Danger Sense, Dispel Psionics (dispel magic), Energy Push (icy collision and shocking clash), Object Reading (psychometric touch), Swarm of Crystals (hail of blades) 3: Body Adjustment (flesh and bone knitting), Energy Bolt (ice shot and lightning bolt), Energy Burst (heat sink and scream), Escape Detection (shouded sight) 4: Aura Sight, Remote Viewing (greater scrying), Psionic Divination (divination) 5: Second Chance 6: Greater Precognition (victory foretold) 7: Energy Wave (shockwave and thunder blast), Fate of One (surity of accomplishment), Psionic Moment of Prescience (moment of prescience)
    Power Points: 166
    Special Actions Detect Evil, Lay on Hands, Turn Undead, Remove Disease 3/day, paladin spells, Remove Curse 3/week, Weapon Aptitude, Improved Uncany Dodge
    Combat Gear
    ________________
    Post-Combat
    Death: none.
    Linger: none.
    Treasure: 102,500 gp left
    ________________
    Other
    Abilities Str 14 (+2), Dex 13 (+1) (base 9, +2 human bonus, +2 manual of quickness of action), Con 15 (+2) (base 12, +3 manual of bodily health), Int 17 (+3) (base 14, +3 levels), Wis 13 (+1) (base 13), Cha 17 (+3)
    Skills Balance rank 8 (Bonus +9), Climb rank 6 (+8), Concentration rank 12 (+14), Craft (sculpture) rank 4 (+7), Diplomacy rank 8 (+15), Handle Animal rank 3 (+6), Heal rank 6 (+7), Jump rank 10 (+12), Knowledge (history) rank 8 (+11), Knowledge (religion) rank 7 (+10), Martial Lore rank 13 (+16), Ride rank 7 (+8), Sense Motive rank 10 (+11), Spellcraft/Psicraft rank 16 (+19), Spot rank 6 (+7), Tumble rank 4 (+5)
    ________________
    Feats
    Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (racial bonus): {feat 1}
    Combat Intution: {feat 2}
    Deflect Arrows: {feat 3}
    Improved Initiative: {feat 4}
    Rapid Assault: {feat 5}
    Die-Hard: {feat 6}
    Improved Critical (broadsword): {feat 7}
    Toughness: Sir Birkley adds his Constituion score of 15 to his hit points and doubles his bonus hit points from Constitution.
    :
    Blade Meditation (Warblade): Birkley adds 4 to all attack rolls made with Iron Heart discipline weapons.
    Endurance (Warblade): {feat 11}
    Martial Study (Warblade): {feat 12}
    Feat 13 (Psion): {feat 13}
    Feat 14 (Psion): {feat 14}
    Feat 15 (Psion): {feat 15}
    ________________
    Abilities
    Battle Clarity (Ex): Sir Cardonell can enter a state of almost mystical awareness of the battlefield around himself. As long as he is not flat-footed, he gains a +3 insight bonus from Intelligence bonus on his Reflex saves.
    Weapon Aptitude (Ex): Birkley's training with a wide range of weaponry and tactics gives him great skill with particular weapons. He qualifies for feats that usually require a minimum number of fighter levels (such as Weapon Specialization) as if Birkley had a fighter level of eleven.

    Sir Cardonell also has the flexibility to adjust his weapon training. Each morning, he can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat he has that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus). He must have the newly designated weapon available during his practice session to make this change.

    Birkley can adjust any number of your feats in this way, and he doesn't have to adjust them all in the same way. However, he can't change the weapon choices in such a way that he no longer meets the prerequisite for some other feat he possess.
    Battle Ardor (Ex): The sheer love of battle lends uncanny strength to Sir Cardonell's blows. Starting at 3rd level, he gains a +3 insight bonus from his Intelligence on rolls made to confirm critical hits.
    Battle Cunning (Ex): Birkley's instinct for seizing the moment gives him a significant advantage over foes unprepared for his attack. At 7th level, he gains a +3 insight bonus from his Intelligence on melee damage rolls against flat-footed or flanked opponents.
    Battle Skill (Ex): Birkley anticipates his enemies' ploys and tactics. At 11th level, he gains a +3 insight bonus equal from his Intelligence on any check made to oppose an enemy's bull rush, disarm, feint, overrun, sunder, or trip attempt.
    Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): ASir Birkley Cardonell is trained to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if he is are immobilized. In addition Sir Cardonell can no longer be flanked; he can react to opponents on opposite sides of him as easily as you can react to a single attacker.
    Aura of Good (Ex): The power of a Birkleys’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to his paladin level.
    Detect Evil (Su): At will, Birkley can use detect evil, as the spell.
    Smite Evil 5/day: Up to five per day, Sir Cardonell can call out to the powers of good to aid him in his struggle against evil. As a swift action, the Birkley chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the Birkley adds his Cha bonus of +3 to his attack rolls and adds his paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of his smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per paladin level Birkley possesses.Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess. In addition, while smite evil is in effect, Birkley gains a deflection bonus equal to his Charisma modifier of +3 to his AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If he targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect. The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time Birkley rests and regains his uses of this ability.
    Divine Grace (Su): So blessed as he is, Sir Birkley Cardonell recieves a bonus equal to his Charisma bonus of +3 on all Saving Throws.
    Lay On Hands (Su): As a paladin Sir Cardonell can heal wounds (his own or those of others) by touch. Each day he can heal 117 hit points of damage. Birkley may choose to divide his healing among multiple recipients, and he doesn’t have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action.
    Alternatively, Sir Birkley Cardonell can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Cardonell decides how many of his daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature.
    Aura of Courage (Su): Befitting his status as such noble and virtuous knight, Sir Birkley Cardonell is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. This ability functions only while Birkley is conscious, not if he is unconscious or dead. This does not mean that Birkley lacks fear, only that his divinely backed courage and determination prevents from cowering or panicking.
    Divine Health (Ex): Birkley is immune to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
    Turn Undead (Su): Sir birkley has the supernatural power to turn the undead at will.
    Paladin spells: As a result of his high status as a paladin, Sir Birlkey can perform minor miracles in the form of certain prayers and rites. In game term this means that he can cast 0-3rd level alignmenst suitable cleric spells with a caster level equal to his paladin level-5. Orisons, 5/day., Level 1, 3/day., Level 2, 3/day. Level 3, 2/day.
    Holy Mount: By advancing through the ranks of this noble calling Sir Birkley has acquired a the aid of a most unusual animal to serve as a mount in his quest for justice. In this case, a dire wolf named Leonhard.
    Remove Disease 3/day: Birkley can produce a remove disease effect, as the spell, three times per day.
    Aura of Resolve (Su): His will being so strong and the power he derives from his moral fortitude so great, Birkley is immune to charm spells and spell-like abilities. Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against charm effects. This ability functions only while Birkley is conscious, not if he is unconscious or dead.
    Remove Curse 3/week (Su): Birkley can produce a remove curse effect, as the spell three times per week.

    I'm currently working on stats for Leonhard so any help with equipment would be welcome. I know that I gave him more powers than a standard PHB paladin but I plan on making a class revision and posting it on this site as soon as possible.
    Last edited by Agrippa; 2010-12-02 at 03:10 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    Hm... Do I understand it correctly?
    You advance one class, getting new levels based on it's XP table, for example a fighter would be 4th level with 6000 XP, when a wizard would be still 2nd level.
    Then I could get another level in fighter OR get 3rd level gestalt warblade slapt on before the wizard reaches 4th level OR get 4 levels gestalt rogue slapt on OR get 3rd level gestalt rogue and 3rd level gestalt barbarian slapt on?
    OR it could look like this: Wizard is 4th level and the fighter//rogue//barbarian//marshal is 3rd level.
    Last edited by ImperatorK; 2011-06-20 at 11:32 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    3.X multiclassing rules are pretty bad, but they're bad in a good way. Because the system as a whole is designed around the idea that a class level, any class level, is equal to all other class levels. And you know what, that's a really good idea. You're totally right that it falls apart when you have stupid things like spellcasting that starts over every time you enter a new spellcasting class, but the core idea, of being able to switch out a level in any class for a level in any class and have the final voltronlike creation end up the same ECL is a good idea. This is where the idea of monster HD also comes in, especially where it interacts with players. I'm not saying that RHD or anything like that works, but it's a good idea in principle.

    Adding in slow and fast progressions isn't really good for the game because it takes away from this core principle. If you take out the spellcasting classes and ignore a few other things (described below), 3.X multiclassing is actually really awesome. That's why it's nonmagical builds where you see tons of jumping around and system mastery in creating cool and uniquely powerful characters, whereas spellcasters are deeply encouraged to remain in their class (or a prestige class which never loses caster levels).

    The things that you need to remove or fix to make multiclassing work in 3.X are:

    • XP penalties for multiclassing. Dumb and don't do anything good for the game, like most XP penalties.

    • Good saving throws starting at +2. It sounds small but it means multiclassers end up with ludicrously high saves really fast, especially since the good save after twenty levels only ends up at +12. A quick fix is change the level 1/2/3 progression of a good save from +2/+3/+3 to +1/+2/+3. Fractional saves and BAB work better but are more maths-intensive.

    • Make every mention ever of having an ability based on class level instead based on total character level. If the ability is appropriate for the character to have then it's alright for it to scale with their total level instead of being pushed into uselessness by math.

    • Figure something out for spellcasting. My favourite solution is to just give you the new spells you would have gotten at that level whenever you multiclass into a spellcasting class, even if you have no previous spellcasting experience.

    For example, a barbarian 6 who takes a level in sorcerer gets the same spellcasting benefits a sorcerer 6 would get. Which is to say, they get one 2nd level spell per day and one 3rd level spell per day, as well as a new 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spell known. Caster level as mentioned above is equal to their total character level. Nothing more, nothing less.

    This last seems like it would be unbalancing but it's actually not, because it's totally appropriate for a 7th level character, even one who has mostly experience as a barbarian, to have a 2nd and a 3rd level spell each day.

    The key is to keep to the core principle that any level is equal to any other level no matter when in your character build you take it.
    Last edited by Kellus; 2011-06-20 at 11:46 PM. Reason: math typo

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    Default Re: [3.5/Pathfinder PEACH] A take on multiclassing based off of 1st and 2nd edition.

    To be honest I kinda like this homebrewed XP system. Because really, the tier 4-5s aren't gonna reach tier 1-2s power/versatility even in a thousand years, magic IS that good. Even combining 3-4 of tier 4-5s won't fix that, but at least gives those classes SOME options. I like it.

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