Duskblade Tank

[Tvtyrant]

I was reading the Duskblade feats thread and I thought about if a Duskblade could function as a heavy shield/medium armor tank. This question depends on three weighing mechs that I can think of:

1. Can you use the shield to deliver touch attacks at level 13 as you would a TWF weapon?

2. Is a 1 level dip into fighter an acceptable loss of spell casting. If so you can get tower shield and a few feats to start out, especially as a human.

3. Would there be grievous disadvantage to playing as a dwarf? The use of the Dwarven battle axe would be nice, and you would be getting the same feats as a human would if he went for the un-nameable sword. Also, extra con is never a miss.

So, does anyone have any answers (general or specific) to the topic of making an effective Duskblade Tank?

[Thurbane]

One of the characters I am DMing for is a Dwarven Duskblade...using the Battle Caster feat, he wears (and casts in) full plate.

[Coidzor]

1. If you can with any other weapon while TWF, then yes, you can with a shield. At worst you'd have to do it through the shield spikes/blades. Whether you can arcane channel through more than one weapon though, I do not know.

2. Fighter 1, maybe Fighter 2 could be worth it, if you really needed, say, a mounted combat feat. Actually, you'd pretty much have to dip 2 to pay the feat tax for battlecaster to make it worth your while to have heavy armor available.

3. If you're dead set on not having reach and on being sword and board, waraxe isn't a bad choice for a one handed weapon if you don't have to actively spend a feat to lose damage by one handing it. I'd recommend against it due to the movement penalty and lack of a real draw. Unless you're going mounted or something.

[Myth]

What level are we talking about? At some point simply having AC is no longer a valid tank build.

[Person_Man]

I was reading the Duskblade feats thread and I thought about if a Duskblade could function as a heavy shield/medium armor tank. This question depends on three weighing mechs that I can think of:

1. Can you use the shield to deliver touch attacks at level 13 as you would a TWF weapon?

2. Is a 1 level dip into fighter an acceptable loss of spell casting. If so you can get tower shield and a few feats to start out, especially as a human.

3. Would there be grievous disadvantage to playing as a dwarf? The use of the Dwarven battle axe would be nice, and you would be getting the same feats as a human would if he went for the un-nameable sword. Also, extra con is never a miss.

So, does anyone have any answers (general or specific) to the topic of making an effective Duskblade Tank?

1) Theoretically you need a free hand to cast spells with a Somatic component. If you are wielding a two handed weapon, you can switch to holding it with one hand and back again as a free action (this is specifically addressed in the FAQ). But if you are holding anything in each hand, weapons, shields, whatever, then you can't. Thus a Sword and Board Duskblade must waste a feat on Somatic Weaponry, which is a waste since he's so feat starved and you can generally just use an Animated shield.

2) You cannot attack with a Tower Shield, and it's generally not worth spending a feat or class level to get a +2 bonus to AC.

3) Not really. Though there are better choices, Dwarf is a solid race.

In general, the Duskblade isn't a great tank. He has armor and shield issues and lacks any major defensive abilities - battlefield control, bonuses to Saves, AC, hit points, SR, ER, miss chance, Evasion, Mettle, etc. If it's something you're wedded to, a reasonably useful tank can be done with pretty much any class if you pick out the right equipment. But it's not ideal.

[Goudaa]

spiked chain exotic weapon
combat reflexes
combat expertise
hold the line (complete warrior)
arcane strike (complete warrior)
robilar's gambit (phb2)
mithril bp + animated shield GOGO!

[Blackfang108]

1) Theoretically you need a free hand to cast spells with a Somatic component. If you are wielding a two handed weapon, you can switch to holding it with one hand and back again as a free action (this is specifically addressed in the FAQ). But if you are holding anything in each hand, weapons, shields, whatever, then you can't. Thus a Sword and Board Duskblade must waste a feat on Somatic Weaponry, which is a waste since he's so feat starved and you can generally just use an Animated shield.

Doesn't the Duskblade get features specifically to ignore casting in shields?

[Quietus]

Doesn't the Duskblade get features specifically to ignore casting in shields?

Only the spell failure related to them. That doesn't actually give them the ability to use their shield-hand to complete Somatic components.

[Blackfang108]

Only the spell failure related to them. That doesn't actually give them the ability to use their shield-hand to complete Somatic components.

Right...

OTOH, if you use a light hield, you can still use that hand for somatic components, iirc. (isn't the hand considered free?).

And there's always a buckler

Edit: I can't spell.

[Keld Denar]

You ignore Arcane Spell Failure. You do NOT, however, ignore somantic components. Most spells (except for those in the Teleport subschool, and a few others) have somantic components. Regardless of your spell failure rate, you still need a free hand to make arcane gestures unless you cast all spells with the Still Spell feat.

I'd have to look a bit, but I think a light shield can be used for somantic components. I know bucklers allow it, and I know heavy shields don't, and light shields are somewhere in between, but I don't remember off the top of my head.

Also, you CAN channel a spell through a shield bash. It is a weapon. You'd lose the value of the shield unless you have the Improved Shield Bash feat though.

[Goudaa]

I don't know why you'd bother with a shield with duskblade unless it was animated honestly.

Go combat expertise for AC when you need/want.

[Psyren]

I don't know why you'd bother with a shield with duskblade unless it was animated honestly.

Go combat expertise for AC when you need/want.

I have to agree; you may as well put that high Int to good use. With all the magical ways of buffing your to-hit, the penalty won't matter much.

Better still, CE applies to your touch AC; shields do not.

[Person_Man]

I also think that you can just use a non-Tower Animated shield.

Also, you might be able to pull off a mini-King of Smack combo with a Duskblade. DUMP AC, take Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, and maybe Double Hit. Pick up a staff and enchant both sides with Vampiric (Unappouchable East) and Spell Storing. Channel Vampiric Touch as needed each round. Enemy hits you, you hit enemy with 3 hits in return, healing yourself on each attack. Dangerous, but fun.

[Tvtyrant]

I also think that you can just use a non-Tower Animated shield.

Also, you might be able to pull off a mini-King of Smack combo with a Duskblade. DUMP AC, take Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, and maybe Double Hit. Pick up a staff and enchant both sides with Vampiric (Unappouchable East) and Spell Storing. Channel Vampiric Touch as needed each round. Enemy hits you, you hit enemy with 3 hits in return, healing yourself on each attack. Dangerous, but fun.

Your a gambling man, I can just tell :P

Okay, so the shield is out. So that leaves two handed weapons or a one handed weapon and nothing else. Unless I have a shield in the offhand and make my touch attacks through improved unarmed strike with the main hand :P Leaves a hand for somatic, lets me do attacks and have a shield.

Gonna have to meditate on that one.

[Psyren]

Fists aren't worth it without SUS, and are barely worth it even then. Just use the feat you would have blown on IUS and take Somatic Weaponry (CM) instead.

[Keld Denar]

If you are gonna burn a feat, take Improved Shield Bash instead, and punch people with your shield. If you put a spike on it, you'll be dealing more base damage than an UAS for the same feat expenditure. Base damage doesn't make a big difference, but if you are selling a pint of blueberries for $2 and a quart of blueberries for $2, I'll take the quart any day.

Plus, Imp Shield Bash opens up a couple of neat feat trees, including Shield Slam (yay stun!) and Shield Ward (bonus on Touch AC!). Not the best, but better than taking IUAS!

[Tvtyrant]

If you are gonna burn a feat, take Improved Shield Bash instead, and punch people with your shield. If you put a spike on it, you'll be dealing more base damage than an UAS for the same feat expenditure. Base damage doesn't make a big difference, but if you are selling a pint of blueberries for $2 and a quart of blueberries for $2, I'll take the quart any day.

Plus, Imp Shield Bash opens up a couple of neat feat trees, including Shield Slam (yay stun!) and Shield Ward (bonus on Touch AC!). Not the best, but better than taking IUAS!

Actually, that would be a lot of fun. Though it still leaves me with a hand not doing anything. Maybe a poison touch wring in the off hand? Wouldn't mess with spell casting and would give me a useful touch attack if I run out of spells.

[Psyren]

Did you miss my post on Somatic Weaponry? That would solve your shield problems, and even let you dual-wield later or grab a 2-hander if you chose.

[Blackfang108]

Did you miss my post on Somatic Weaponry? That would solve your shield problems, and even let you dual-wield later or grab a 2-hander if you chose.

2-hander doesn't require somatic weaponry.

[Coidzor]

Also, you might be able to pull off a mini-King of Smack combo with a Duskblade. DUMP AC, take Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, and maybe Double Hit. Pick up a staff and enchant both sides with Vampiric (Unappouchable East) and Spell Storing. Channel Vampiric Touch as needed each round. Enemy hits you, you hit enemy with 3 hits in return, healing yourself on each attack. Dangerous, but fun.

How does one dump AC other than wading into battle naked? I'm curious...

Oh, and if LA buy-off is allowed, getting a template with DR for such a build is pretty much a must. Quasil-lycanthrope and Mineral Warrior are the only two I can think of offhand, Silver and Adamantine, respectively.

[Psyren]

2-hander doesn't require somatic weaponry.

Yeah, but can you think of anything cooler than tracing a sigil mid-air with an elven courtblade? Neither can I!

[Tvtyrant]

It would be kinda cool in a fluff sorta way to do Duskblade/greenstar adept.

[Psyren]

It would be kinda cool in a fluff sorta way to do Duskblade/greenstar adept.

Just be a Warforged. Trust me.

[Pechvarry]

I really think it's worth reiterating that weapon + light shield costs you 1 AC and lets you cast spells just fine (the hand is free to hold objects and manipulate stuff, but not use weapons). It also will decrease your bash damage slightly, but being a light weapon, will work better with TWF (though this is moot if you plan to go the agile shield fighter route). However... I can't find the SRD reference to back up my claims about the free hand right yet. :/

[AslanCross]

As has been mentioned earlier, the Duskblade is not necessarily a good tank just because he can cast in armor. There are really only two classes in D&D that can tank: Knight and Crusader. These classes can actually force monsters to attack them instead of allies, AND can take hard hits and hit hard while they're at it.

The Duskblade is primarily a striker, and excels at that. A Duskblade, for the most part, lacks the ability to force damage to be redirected to himself.

[Psyren]

As has been mentioned earlier, the Duskblade is not necessarily a good tank just because he can cast in armor. There are really only two classes in D&D that can tank: Knight and Crusader. These classes can actually force monsters to attack them instead of allies, AND can take hard hits and hit hard while they're at it.

Everyone forgets psionics

Psywar is a great tank too. Want to get past me? Expansion. Going after the wizard eh? Dimension Swap. Delaying your action until I do something? Synchronicity. Spread-out threats? Inconstant Location. Need another AoO for Stand Still? Prowess. Squishies taking damage? Share Pain. And don't get me started on the tricks you can get up to with Metamorphosis, or mantles (Guardian and Justice are well-suited to tanks.)

[Tael]

Everyone forgets psionics

Psywar is a great tank too. Want to get past me? Expansion. Going after the wizard eh? Dimension Swap. Delaying your action until I do something? Synchronicity. Spread-out threats? Inconstant Location. Need another AoO for Stand Still? Prowess. Squishies taking damage? Share Pain. And don't get me started on the tricks you can get up to with Metamorphosis, or mantles (Guardian and Justice are well-suited to tanks.)

And that's not even getting into the truckloads of HP you have using the Psycrystal + Share Pain + Vigor combo, and all of the AC buffs they can get.