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    Default Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Introduction

    So here's the deal. The third edition of D&D is fun and wonderful and everyone seems to like it. The problem is, it has some major balance issues, particularly the base classes. Nobody wants a game without balanced roles for the players, but all the alternatives seem to be terrible. As far as we knew, there was no way out of this morass.

    Until now.

    I've been following the homebrew here for a while, selecting the best bits and my favourites. What I would like to offer is a list of classes that are balanced to Tier 3, flavourful and capable of replacing the core classes. I wanted this list to be concise but complete, of course suggestions are welcome.

    Let me say this again. As far as I can tell, if you use this list in your game, all characters should be Tier 3, an optimised character could get to Tier 2 and someone who builds for 'balance' might drop to Tier 4. Mostly though, all of the characters will be right in the middle.

    Any of the following would be greatly appreciated:
    • Suggestions for other balanced and flavourful Tier 3 classes
    • Suggestions for classes that fit the archetypal roles in question better than these classes do
    • Other ways of ordering the list
    • Commentary on the appropriateness of the classes listed
    • Notification if any of the links are broken


    Edit: I've gotten a bunch of suggestions for other classes that fit the description. Until I've gotten a chance to go through them and check for the best, they'll be spoilered at the bottom.

    The List
    Arcane

    Divine
    • Druid (Or one or more of the following ACFs:)
      • Shapeshift (Player's Handbook II)
      • Deadly Hunter (Unearthed Arcana)
      • Druidic Avenger (Unearthed Arcana)
      • Martial
    • Cleric
    • Shaman (Oriental Adventures)
    • Spirit Shaman (ACF)
    • Shugenja (Complete Divine)


    Combat

    Skill-Based

    Other

    Incarnum
    • Totemist (Magic of Incarnum)
    • Incarnate (Magic of Incarnum)


    Psionic


    Other possibilities: To be examined
    Last edited by Eleven; 2010-11-19 at 01:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Are you kidding? Are you seriously putting both the Fighter and the Druid (no matter what ACFs it takes) on the same tier? Druids are still full-casters no matter what, and won't ever drop to tier 3. With extreme optimization a Fighter can reach tier 4.

    This list needs to be more specific about what builds qualify or give caveats about default power level, cuz a newbie looking at the list might think that "Wow, a Soulknife is balanced!" and we wouldn't want that.

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Psychic Warrior, god damn it.
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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    Are you kidding? Are you seriously putting both the Fighter and the Druid (no matter what ACFs it takes) on the same tier? Druids are still full-casters no matter what, and won't ever drop to tier 3. With extreme optimization a Fighter can reach tier 4.

    This list needs to be more specific about what builds qualify or give caveats about default power level, cuz a newbie looking at the list might think that "Wow, a Soulknife is balanced!" and we wouldn't want that.
    Um. You do realize that's not the Fighter, Druid, and Soulknife you're expecting, right?

    That Druid doesn't even have standard casting, that fighter is rocking like 40 class features, and that Soulknife is a Dark Templar.

    Seriously. Someone posts a very nice resource for well-done homebrew where the authors actually continued to work on their creation instead of 1 post and never taking criticism, and the VERY FIRST RESPONSE didn't even read it? As Hook would say, Bad Form!

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Shows me to quick-post at work

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    The class in my sig isn't totally finished (it mostly just lacks fluff; the mechanics are 95% complete), but it's balanced at out-of-the-box tier 3. It's kind of a variant Totemist.
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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    I made a Teleporter base class that I'm pleased with - it's designed as a T3 Conjuration/Divination specialist spontaneous caster similar to the Beguiler and Dread Necro. It's been critiqued fairly extensively and even playtested a little.

    I think jiriku had quite a nice set of element-focused arcane spontaneous casters, too.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #10 in the series, Fallen, is out as of September 2019. For updates, check my blog!

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Factotum is from Dungeonscape, not Dungeonomicon.

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    There should be a Dungeonomicon, though. That's really just an awesome name.

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Just some commentary: you link to some d20r classes which use mechanics that are distinctly unique from the core 3.5e mechanics; how do you recommend translating the mechanics of poweress and the unique skill system that Fax uses for his classes?

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    There should be a Dungeonomicon, though. That's really just an awesome name.
    Wasn't that the name of one of Frank's an K tomes?
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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Just posting to say, as someone who has used the Ebon, Harrowed, and the Swordmage, I would say all three are perhaps tier 2. The Ebon for sure, that thing is a monster.. The Harrowed, I haven't used in quite some time, but it was quite good. Although remembering it, I guess I do see it as tier 3. The Swordmage, while mainly melee focused, is low tier 2 imho. Just my opinion on the classes, this seems to be a well detailed account of good homebrew in any case. So congrats for that. I'll be subscribing to this page.
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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    Shows me to quick-post at work
    Apologies for coming off harsh. ><

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    I think my Beast Warrior class (in my sig) is Tier 3 and flavorful. But that might just be my opinion.

    Regardless of that, kudos on starting this thread. Consider me subscribed.
    Last edited by Melayl; 2010-11-04 at 10:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    This is a really cool thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrcarter11 View Post
    Just posting to say, as someone who has used the Ebon, Harrowed, and the Swordmage, I would say all three are perhaps tier 2. The Ebon for sure, that thing is a monster.. The Harrowed, I haven't used in quite some time, but it was quite good. Although remembering it, I guess I do see it as tier 3. The Swordmage, while mainly melee focused, is low tier 2 imho. Just my opinion on the classes, this seems to be a well detailed account of good homebrew in any case. So congrats for that. I'll be subscribing to this page.
    Dunno about the Ebon, but Harrowed I've used a little, and it always struck me as kind of weak. I know Lord_Gareth's been updating it recently and I don't know the details on that, but the thread that's "The Revised Harrowed", I'd have put that at Tier 3-4-ish, personally.

    Swordmage is explicitly intended to be Tier 3, but my own reading... I'm not sure it's there, it's got a lot of power, I think your low Tier 2 might be more accurate. A lot of the issue, though, is that the author's said that he really had no idea on the high-level stuff, since he hasn't tested it yet, so all the Incantations above like 3rd level are kind of "guesses" at balance, apparently.

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Person_Man's War Soul (though I still prefer Soulblade) needs to be in here. It's a combination of the Soulborn and Soulknife base classes.

    Marksman, from the DSP folks, is solid tier 3 as well; so are Thoughtsinger and Society Mind.

    The DSP Wilder could be T3, but gets closer to T2 if you add in the Educated Wilder ACF.

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    Wasn't that the name of one of Frank's an K tomes?
    Yes, it certainly was. An excellent book, no doubt.

    Also, the factotum without FoI could in no way compete with the fighter, druid, and soulknife ("Dark Templar"... WAY cooler) that you've given. Even with FoI, it's still not all that fantastic.

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Hmmm... would you think my Dabblemaster or my Limit Dragoon befit Tier 3 standards?

    I've also been working on the Hemoscribe which is supposed to work kind of a bit like a mix of Totemist and Wilder, but with different mechanics backing that up. It was made for the Base Class Challenge, which people should vote in, by the way.


    Also, considering you listed Kellus' Truenamer fix as Tier 3, do you think the same of Kyeudo's fix? As long as it is Tier 3, I would deem it only fair to list more than just one particular fix.
    Last edited by Morph Bark; 2010-11-05 at 05:26 AM.
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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by kryan View Post
    This is a really cool thread.


    Dunno about the Ebon, but Harrowed I've used a little, and it always struck me as kind of weak. I know Lord_Gareth's been updating it recently and I don't know the details on that, but the thread that's "The Revised Harrowed", I'd have put that at Tier 3-4-ish, personally.

    Swordmage is explicitly intended to be Tier 3, but my own reading... I'm not sure it's there, it's got a lot of power, I think your low Tier 2 might be more accurate. A lot of the issue, though, is that the author's said that he really had no idea on the high-level stuff, since he hasn't tested it yet, so all the Incantations above like 3rd level are kind of "guesses" at balance, apparently.
    I've used the Ebon in low level and high level play.. It has a lot of staying power.. The PrC's Errant made for it are good too, although personally I prefer to take full Ebon. And you could be right about the Harrow, it has been a while.. As for the Swordmage, as for as I know testing was done on it for high levels.. I currently use it in ToDE.. It is quite good, in any case, and I'd recommend all three for any player to have some fun.

    Also, M-Bark your dabblemaster is already listed in the OP, as for your Hemoscribe, I just wanted to say I liked it, and casted my 1st place vote for it already.

    As another note to the OP, you may consider adding the Ghostblade. to your list. While I'm not commonly in favor of her brew, I must admit I rather like the Ghostblade. I have no experience with it though, so I can't vouch for power level.
    Last edited by mrcarter11; 2010-11-05 at 10:49 AM.
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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Aran Banks View Post
    Yes, it certainly was. An excellent book, no doubt.

    Also, the factotum without FoI could in no way compete with the fighter, druid, and soulknife ("Dark Templar"... WAY cooler) that you've given. Even with FoI, it's still not all that fantastic.
    You obviously don't know much about Factoti.

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    You obviously don't know much about Factoti.
    Funny facts about factotum: despite the word's latin origins*, it's correctly pluralized as "factotums".


    *fac! ‘do!’ (imperative of facere) + totum ‘the whole thing’ (neuter of totus).
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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    I think the OP should add nothing if only because he will then have to add pretty much every suggestion in this thread. And suddenly it becomes much less crisp (especially with multiple versions of the same classes). These are his choices, and a great place to start for the rest of us who want to compile similar lists.

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Funny facts about factotum: despite the word's latin origins*, it's correctly pluralized as "factotums".
    It's not like Factoti was incorrect. If I want to use the englishised version, I could pluralize it as Factotums. Since I'm not even a native English speaker, I might as well use a Latin pluralization.

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    It's not like Factoti was incorrect. If I want to use the englishised version, I could pluralize it as Factotums. Since I'm not even a native English speaker, I might as well use a Latin pluralization.
    But the word itself is not latin, and thus using the grammatical rules of latin is incorrect, even if English isn't your first language.

    Besides, it's not like latin is your first language.
    Last edited by Greenish; 2010-11-05 at 07:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    But the word itself is not latin, and thus using the grammatical rules of latin is incorrect, even if English isn't your first language.

    Besides, it's not like latin is your first language.
    Factotum is Latin for 'do everything', so I don't know what's your point. Anyway, it's irrelevant to the thread and I tire of your snarkiness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Factotum is Latin for 'do everything', so I don't know what's your point.
    It comes from latin phrases "dominum (or magister) factotum" (master of everything) and "Johannes factotem" (John do-it-all), yes, but it's not actually proper latin. Thus, the proper plural in the only language these forums speak is "factotums".
    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Anyway, it's irrelevant to the thread and I tire of your snarkiness.
    Yay, another victory in internet debating! (My mum is going to be so proud!)
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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    I'm glad to see Gorgondantess' Paladin, Kellus' Sagittarius and some of Dragoonwraith's work (Invoker, Swordmage etc.) up there in that list.

    I'm going to bookmark this.


    EDIT: Where's the bard? Is it balanced? Is there a tier 3 bard homebrew? I must be blind. Maybe you could move the Bard out of specialist casters and into a different position? It isn't exactly a specialist caster...
    Last edited by Roc Ness; 2010-11-06 at 12:19 AM.

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    You obviously don't know much about Factoti.
    Do tell. Obviously you're a large reservoir of factotum-exclusive optimization.

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    You can find a large list of tier-3 here. Weird link since it goes to the "ask" (search by specific categories) page, but 99% of them are complete and ready to be used.

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    Default Re: Balanced List of Tier 3 Homebrew and Published Classes

    Alright dudes, I've been working hard on real life things for a while. I suppose it's time to come back to this and answer all of your thoughts.

    Firstly, for all of you who have suggested additions: I've spoilered your suggestions at the end of the list. I haven't got time right now to go through and check them all out. I will do so. I'm also keeping Pechvarry's suggestion in mind; I don't want this to get too bloated. Many of these classes are pretty great though, and most fill niches that I've left out.

    Anyways, to the specifics:

    Are you kidding? Are you seriously putting both the Fighter and the Druid (no matter what ACFs it takes) on the same tier? Druids are still full-casters no matter what, and won't ever drop to tier 3. With extreme optimization a Fighter can reach tier 4.

    This list needs to be more specific about what builds qualify or give caveats about default power level, cuz a newbie looking at the list might think that "Wow, a Soulknife is balanced!" and we wouldn't want that.
    As has been mentioned, these classes have been specifically picked from the best of the homebrew and published stuff I have found, with the main intention of them being being balanced to Tier 3. Well, and being awesome.

    Thank you for your concern, and I certainly understand where you were coming from. That, after all, was the main reason I've been putting this together.

    Psychic Warrior, god damn it.
    Fixed. My mistake on this one; I never use psionics, so this one slipped me by.

    I think jiriku had quite a nice set of element-focused arcane spontaneous casters, too.
    It's up there. See "Elemental Casters"

    Factotum is from Dungeonscape, not Dungeonomicon.
    Whups. Fixed.

    Just some commentary: you link to some d20r classes which use mechanics that are distinctly unique from the core 3.5e mechanics; how do you recommend translating the mechanics of poweress and the unique skill system that Fax uses for his classes?
    This list is intended for the normal 3e or 3.5e game. I suppose it could be fairly easily modified to Pathfinder, but that is neither here nor there. Now, I don't have the time or energy to modify Fax's entire system to be backwards compatible, and trying to pull that off would likely crush a lot of the great innovations he is trying to put together.

    What I would suggest is to leave the basic chassis of the class in question intact: spells (or their equivalents) and class features would remain as in d20r, and all of the bonus feats, BaB, and saves would stay as written. These are all of the changes that are class specific and could be used without the system as a whole. For the rest of the class (particularly the prowess and skill sets), I would return to the Core 3.5e (or whatever) version of the class. Give it the regular feats and the regular skills and you'll be done. Any abilities that remain problematic would need to be looked at individually.

    Just posting to say, as someone who has used the Ebon, Harrowed, and the Swordmage, I would say all three are perhaps tier 2. The Ebon for sure, that thing is a monster.. The Harrowed, I haven't used in quite some time, but it was quite good. Although remembering it, I guess I do see it as tier 3. The Swordmage, while mainly melee focused, is low tier 2 imho.
    The Harrowed, as you've said, is certainly a Tier 3. Lord_Gareth has been updating it fairly frequently, and I'm inclined to believe that it is ok. For the Ebon Initiate, I've moved it from the main list and will be reconsidering it. Swordsage is a high Tier 3 or low Tier 2 depending on how it is played, but I think it is a valuable addition nonetheless.

    You can find a large list of tier-3 here. Weird link since it goes to the "ask" (search by specific categories) page, but 99% of them are complete and ready to be used.
    I'll check this out.


    For all the rest of you, thanks for your kind words and I hope this is useful.

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