Dealing with the Stereotypical Mary Sue

[Beelzebub1111]

Okay, I have a player joining soon, and ohmygod she's such a mary sue gamer. She recently started playing in our 2nd ed game and every time we meet a new female npc the first words out of her mouth are "I'm prettier than her" (we use comeliness scores so such a thing is quantifiable, but to constantly bring it up is a bit nauseating). When I start running my (3.5) game, she also wants to play a rogue.

Apparently when talking to the others, the last game she played, her boyfriend was the DM and she got special treatment (not that she could tell that, but the one getting the treatment seldom notices).

Now, I'm confidant in my ability to not treat anyone any better than anyone else (even that one guy that I hate), but I want to do my best to avoid nauseating talks about beauty and seduction (sex is one of the topics that I take great pains to circumvent in my game, though I'm trying to do it subtly. It's not something I have an easy time talking about.) Any advice or stories about related circumstances and how to deal?

[Kurald Galain]

What I usually do is play a session of Call of Chtulhu or Paranoia with them, or indeed any RPG that gets their character mutilated, dismembered, summarily executed and eaten in short order.

Sex is actually pretty easy: just outright tell your group that there will be no explicit sex scenes in your game, and deal with such scenes with a "fade to black" and skip to the next morning.

If she likes pointing out how she's prettier than NPCs, then the obvious answer is to introduce the occasional NPC that is prettier than her.

Other than that, I'm not entirely clear on whether you think her character is annoying, or she as a player is annoying, or she uses the old "I'm roleplaying an obnoxious character" excuse to act obnoxiously out of character. Why would it matter that she's playing a rogue, anyway?

[hamishspence]

Okay, I have a player joining soon, and ohmygod she's such a mary sue gamer. She recently started playing in our 2nd ed game and every time we meet a new female npc the first words out of her mouth are "I'm prettier than her" (we use comeliness scores so such a thing is quantifiable, but to constantly bring it up is a bit nauseating).

The Braveheart movie does this in quite a funny way with guys:

Stephen: "That can't be Wallace! I'm prettier than this man!"

[Mastikator]

Tell her that her behavior is annoying and you'd like her to stop proclaiming to be prettier than everyone else.

[Beelzebub1111]

Other than that, I'm not entirely clear on whether you think her character is annoying, or she as a player is annoying, or she uses the old "I'm roleplaying an obnoxious character" excuse to act obnoxiously out of character. Why would it matter that she's playing a rogue, anyway?

Overall, she's not an obnoxious person, and I don't think she realized that she's playing them obnoxiously.
The rogue isn't really an important point, don't know why I mentioned it.

[Kurald Galain]

Overall, she's not an obnoxious person, and I don't think she realized that she's playing them obnoxiously.
The rogue isn't really an important point, don't know why I mentioned it.

In that case, I would suggest talking to her privately and asking her to please not point out every five minutes that her character is prettier. If you bring this tactfully, then I'd expect she doesn't mind stopping that.

[Esser-Z]

Baleful Polymorph.


(not really, as that's a huge jerk move, but!)

[Morithias]

Ironically the BOEF can easily counter the 'sex' problem. In that book sex is like many things a skill namely perform. She can claim in character to be the ultimate woman in bed, but keep in mind although she thinks that, the lack of ranks in said skill will keep the NPC's thinking differently, and eventually her reputation as an arrogant liar will get her in trouble and disliked (See Mean Girls or any other high school female-based movie.)

[Kurald Galain]

Baleful Polymorph.

Play Vampire and let her be the Nosferatu

[valadil]

I had a player like that once. It pissed me off to no end. Then I figured out how to deal with her.

All she wanted was a little validation. If I gave her that little bit of extra description, she was happy. Other characters would succeed at that their tumble checks. She'd dance gracefully by her opponent, winking at him as she passed unharmed.

This had no mechanical effect. The players who were interested in mechanics didn't care that I was giving her the extra bits of description. If there were another player who wanted this kind of validation, I would have given them the extra description too.

Yeah, it's a little weird for me to pander to players in this way. But when I stopped and thought about it, all I was doing was giving her an extra sentence of description a couple times per game. That's all it took to keep that player happy. I'm used to spending hour writing custom plots and NPCs for everyone. She just wanted me to acknowledge her character's coolness once or twice an hour. It wasn't a lot to ask and it made her experience that much better.

For what it's worth, her characters were also competitively sexual. I've never been comfortable roleplaying romance. I thought giving her that extra description when she was hitting on people would be uncomfortable too, but it was actually fine if we left out details. If the players entered a bar, I'd tell her she could take home any guy there she wanted. And that was the end of it. Once she knew her character succeeded in that way, she felt no need to play out the awkward seduction. I was perfectly content to give out that freebie victory and move on with the game.

[bokodasu]

I second the "well, try asking her to stop" method.

But Valadil, I like your style - that was an incredibly insightful and mature way to handle that situation. I would award you this +5 weapon of Defuse Unnecessary Drama, but it looks like you've already got one.

[valadil]

But Valadil, I like your style - that was an incredibly insightful and mature way to handle that situation. I would award you this +5 weapon of Defuse Unnecessary Drama, but it looks like you've already got one.

TY, but I only deserve a +2. I spent 90% of the campaign frustrated by her and only realized how to fix things in the last 2 or 3 sessions.

[Anonomuss]

If she's not obnoxious, and doesn't think she's being obnoxious, maybe she's just playing an insecure character? That she has to remind herself everytime she meets a female NPC that she's "prettier". Might be part of her character.

Unlikely, but you never know.

[Psyx]

A lot of people are insecure. A lot of people counter that in-game. The wimp wants to beat people up, the guy who used to be bullied wants POWaaaaH, and the insecure girl wants to be the prettiest.

If it doesn't hurt the game, give her what she wants in the narrative. Cut the seduction scenes with a straight diplomacy role and then fade-to-black.
And then drop acid on her face at some point, obviously.

[Myth]

She's a rogue right? Have her spot and steal a pretty trinket for her prettier-than-anybody-else's neck.

Suddenly, Necklace of Strangulation.

[ThunderCat]

I agree with the people who say she's just hungry for validation. Don't punish her by making her character ugly or introducing prettier NPCs that you otherwise would, it would be like giving the strong guy a strength penalty and pumping the strength score of monsters just to avoid making him feel competent and special (kind of like the Worf Effect). Not cool.

I'd take valadil's advise for the first couple of sessions, and if she doesn't change, politely ask her (possibly in private) if she could please cut down on the number of times she mentions how pretty her character is.

[Psyren]

All she wanted was a little validation. If I gave her that little bit of extra description, she was happy. Other characters would succeed at that their tumble checks. She'd dance gracefully by her opponent, winking at him as she passed unharmed.

What about when she failed? Did she gracefully fall on her bum and prettily eat an AoO?

[valadil]

What about when she failed? Did she gracefully fall on her bum and prettily eat an AoO?

It didn't come up often, but I'm pretty sure I said that because of her looks the enemies were intent on watching her closely and were so focused on her they didn't miss the chance to attack. Or something like that.

[kyoryu]

Aren't most RPG characters Mary Sues?

[valadil]

Aren't most RPG characters Mary Sues?

Yes, but with varying degrees of assertiveness. The OP's Mary Sue needs to remind you she's a Mary Sue at every last opportunity.

[Shademan]

eeh, some characters wanna wrestle every NPC, some wanna steal everything, some wanna be the prettiest in the world. have some NPC's compliment her once in a while and if you have any evil bards or charismatic villains make sure that they flirt during combat.
EVERYTHING can be twisted into a plot device or just screwed into fun

[WarKitty]

Incubus. That is all.

[Mordar]

Just to be sure...you're equally irritated whenever anyone talks about their seventy-eleven degrees of awesome tracking skill, or mad bow feats, or the ninety-seven goblins they killed with a single quickened-maximized-contingent-whateverothermetamagicfeat-bizarre non-evocation-damaging-spell, right? (Okay, no more hyphens, I promise!)

I've seen tons of male players bragging endlessly on their character's combat prowess, and while it may be gender-biased, I think it is exactly the same kind of issue as a female player bragging their character's attractiveness or ability to manipulate doltish men - a little wish-fulfillment is a key element in drawing players to RPGs. [Feel free to reverse the tropes as well - female wants to feel powerful, so Throd Smash! and male wants to be attractive, so Clifford the Bard beds all the babes.]

So, in short, let her have the spotlight in that regard, just like Throd the Barbarian gets to have the spotlight when raging through the gnoll village or the CoDZilla beats down the entrie Greek Pantheon on a whim. Save the "No, she is far more beautiful than you are" bit for an NPC in a story where it'll focus the issue - a rival, an enemy, or perhaps best of all, an NPC that looks to be a rival/enemy to start and ends a vital friend.

If you can play with someone you hate, I'm confident you can handle a little wish fulfillment character as well

- M

[Kurald Galain]

Aren't most RPG characters Mary Sues?

No.

Most RPG characters are author stand-ins, not Mary Sues.

[Psyren]

It didn't come up often, but I'm pretty sure I said that because of her looks the enemies were intent on watching her closely and were so focused on her they didn't miss the chance to attack. Or something like that.

Ugh. I'd projectile vomit all over her character sheet if I had to be at the same table for that.

Suddenly, Necklace of Strangulation.

This item is just ridiculous. Nothing about failing to work on creatures that don't breathe (RAW, it can kill a Warforged or Necropolitan) and you need Wish to even identify the damn thing. You might as well just have rocks fall on someone as use this fiat-in-sheep's clothing.

Incubus. That is all.

Now here's a solution I can get behind. As long as my character gets one too.

[valadil]

Ugh. I'd projectile vomit all over her character sheet if I had to be at the same table for that.

It's not how I prefer to GM, but it's necessary for some players. For what it's worth I've since declined to invite that player to any of my games. But while she was there I was intent to make the game good for both of us.

[kyoryu]

No.

Most RPG characters are author stand-ins, not Mary Sues.

But a Mary Sue is an author standin, no? So you're arguing that most RPG characters are author stand-ins, but not quite obnoxious enough to meet the Mary Sue definition?

I'll buy that. But a lot of them still have very Mary-Sue-esque tendencies. Maybe they're a .5 Mary Sue.

[Psyren]

It's not how I prefer to GM, but it's necessary for some players. For what it's worth I've since declined to invite that player to any of my games. But while she was there I was intent to make the game good for both of us.

I understand, and I'm not knocking your diplomatic skills. But to have even her failures twisted to be complimentary is definitely Sue territory.

[Kaeso]

I have absolutely no DMing experience (or any DnD face-to-face experience due to personal circumstances) but if she wants to play a seductive character, maybe it'd be best to just throw her a bone once in a while? If she invests alot of skill points in social skills (which is pretty common for a rogue) she could be the seductive, flirty party face that could get the party access to strictly guarded places? It's cheesy and cliché but be honest, what DnD campaign isn't? It will give her an oppertunity to prove she's the prettiest, so perhaps she'll hold back on her need to establish herself as a beauty in situations where it isn't appropriate?

[Dr.Epic]

What I usually do is play a session of Call of Chtulhu or Paranoia with them, or indeed any RPG that gets their character mutilated, dismembered, summarily executed and eaten in short order.

In any D&D game your character is likely to have physical scars left from battle. If it's a constant thing, tell her that (a) beauty is in the eye of the beholder (and you will be too if you don't shut up), and (b) every time you say that from now on your character says that and people will interact with you differently based on your characters vanity. If it gets so bad, just admit she's right and have some orcs try and kidnap her because she's so beautiful. That could be a fun solution.