Mystic Thurge at level 3?

[Welknair]

Step 1. Wizard, Sorcerer, or other arcane caster at first level. Take Precocious apprentice for a second level spell.
Step 2. Cleric, favored soul, or other divine caster at second. Stab out your eyes to earn the blind flaw, getting yourself a bonus feat. Take alternate source spell, allowing you to cast your second level arcane spell as a divine one, thus fulfilling both requirements.
Step 3. Find a way to get around the skill prerequisites. (I just noticed those as I was typing this up. Crap)

Hmph. I was going to go all "Hey look how awesome this is", but instead it's "Does anyone know how to do step 3?

[Psyren]

I think the only way around skill floors is the Bard's Inspire Greatness ability, which grants everyone who hears him bonus HD (and, by extension, a boosted skill cap.) But as you need a 9th-level bard and it only lasts until the ability ends...

[Curmudgeon]

Step 2. Cleric, favored soul, or other divine caster at second. Stab out your eyes to earn the blind flaw, getting yourself a bonus feat.

This requires an especially generous DM. From Unearthed Arcana, page 91:

A player may select up to two flaws when creating a character. After 1st level, a character cannot take on additional flaws unless the DM specifically allows it

[Eloel]

Step 2. Cleric, favored soul, or other divine caster at second. Stab out your eyes to earn the blind flaw, getting yourself a bonus feat.Pay someone for Chaos Shuffle. Take alternate source spell, allowing you to cast your second level arcane spell as a divine one, thus fulfilling both requirements.

Alternatively, as someone put it:

Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu.

[Kondziu]

This requires an especially generous DM.

"Nope, sorry. Put those eyes back in your eyesockets."

[Eloel]

"Nope, sorry. Put those eyes back in your eyesockets."

It kinda avoids the issue of
Stab out your eyes for a feat. Regenerate. Free feat.

[Psyren]

An Illumian Cleric can cast 2nd-level spells at level 1 with Improved Sigil (Krau.) So use your flaws at first-level on that.

[kryan]

Illumian (Races of Destiny) Archivist 2/Wizard 1 or Archivist 1/Wizard 2 with the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat (Races of Destiny) seems like the easiest way in. Getting around the skill requirement just isn't worth it. Really, it's kind of questionable whether Mystic Theurge is worth it even if you managed to get in at 3...

Anyway, there are two ways around a skill requirement - a Bard with Inspire Greatness going 24/7, or the Primary Contact feat from Cityscape (requires another feat, Favored, and only lets you get a bonus to 1 skill and cannot be taken twice).

[Urpriest]

I think the only way around skill floors is the Bard's Inspire Greatness ability, which grants everyone who hears him bonus HD (and, by extension, a boosted skill cap.) But as you need a 9th-level bard and it only lasts until the ability ends...

There's also polymorphing into a Dusk giant for a similar solution.

This falls under both "screwing around with HD-based caps" and "stealing particularly broken abilities from obscure monsters", so it's one of the cheesier methods. Skill prereqs generally take pretty severe cheese to break.

[T.G. Oskar]

Step 1. Wizard, Sorcerer, or other arcane caster at first level. Take Precocious apprentice for a second level spell.
Step 2. Cleric, favored soul, or other divine caster at second. Stab out your eyes to earn the blind flaw, getting yourself a bonus feat. Take alternate source spell, allowing you to cast your second level arcane spell as a divine one, thus fulfilling both requirements.
Step 3. Find a way to get around the skill prerequisites. (I just noticed those as I was typing this up. Crap)

Hmph. I was going to go all "Hey look how awesome this is", but instead it's "Does anyone know how to do step 3?

Darn, where is Doc Roc when we need him the most? Or a ToS veteran, that is.

I think the trick has to deal something with getting extra HD with Inspire Greatness, then be level drained or something similar, somehow making those phantom HD count as actual HD and get skill points out of it. I reckon that's the trick more or less, though it's really flimsy. And pure TO at its best.

[Gavinfoxx]

Or you could, you know, just be an Archivist?

[tyckspoon]

Darn, where is Doc Roc when we need him the most? Or a ToS veteran, that is.

I think the trick has to deal something with getting extra HD with Inspire Greatness, then be level drained or something similar, somehow making those phantom HD count as actual HD and get skill points out of it. I reckon that's the trick more or less, though it's really flimsy. And pure TO at its best.

Gain extra HD. Get Psychic Reformation'd so you can reassign your skill points. Put your skill points into the skills you need higher. No extra skill points involved, just shuffling the ones you already have so you can get skill ranks beyond what your normal caps would be.

[mucat]

This requires an especially generous DM. From Unearthed Arcana, page 91:

All early-entry tricks require an especially generous DM.

If a player wants early entry to a dual-advanceent class, they're welcome to tell me, "Look, this class is underpowered as it is, but I like the flavor. Can we rework the entry requirements?" And I'll be happy to work with them, depending on the overall Tier level of the party. (A "standard" Wiz 3 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge x is probably a Tier-2 or Tier-3 character. If that's in line with the other characters in the campaign, no need to change anything. If the others are Tier-1, I'll help the player rewrite the entry requirements.)

But if the player takes some convoluted set of feats and class choices without consulting me about their plans, then hits level 4 and smirks triumphantly that I "have to" let them into the prestige class two levels early, then I'm gonna be a stickler for RAI. The person who wrote the precocious apprentice feat and the person who wrote the Mystic Theurge requirements weren't taking one another into account; the "clever" player who exploits this is just being a pain in the ass with an entitlement complex..

[Aotrs Commander]

Myself, I've simply dropped the entry requirements to MT to allow entry into the class at level 3 anyway (i.e. the prerquisites is now 1st arcane/1st divine casting). It's not any more broken at higher level, and indeed, the spike in CL is better at lower level where it is a) better for the lower level character and b) means the progression of the higher-level spells is more staggered and thus microcosmically more balanced!

I'm actually slowly doing this to a lot of basically hybrid class like MT or Cerebremancer that don't do much apart from progress two classes, and I'm making a few more up to cover the gaps (like divine/rogue-ish or clr/drd multiclasses). I'm starting to call these "hybrid" rather than "prestidge" classes as they are subtly different in that their aim is not to give you new stuff but advance two classes for a concept from as early as possible.

[FMArthur]

Full Archivist or Wizard progression is worth giving up a caster level for. I would even say such a thing would always be worth it if it only ever cost you a single caster level. Normal Mystic Theurge takes two thoroughly broken classes and tones them down for an interesting and versatile blend. A Mystic Theurge you enter 4 levels early is just multiplying the power of two thoroughly broken classes by one another.

I wouldn't offer such a thing to any player unless everyone else was pulling off lots of cheese too.

[SurlySeraph]

The Codex Anathema in Lords of Madness gives you +5 ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering), and +2 ranks in arcana and the planes. It's a useful trick.

[mucat]

The Codex Anathema in Lords of Madness gives you +5 ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering), and +2 ranks in arcana and the planes. It's a useful trick.

If you want an actual boost to skill rolls, it's useful.

If you want early entry to prestige classes...well, if early entry the that class would improve the campaign, then the DM would have offered to rewrite the requirements on request. If it would not, then a competent DM will tell you exactly what to do with your obscure magic item...

[Welknair]

It kinda avoids the issue of
Stab out your eyes for a feat. Regenerate. Free feat.

It says in the flaw that you lose the feat if you ever regain your sight.

So, if someone cured him, he'd lose all his power...

[Aotrs Commander]

Full Archivist or Wizard progression is worth giving up a caster level for. I would even say such a thing would always be worth it if it only ever cost you a single caster level. Normal Mystic Theurge takes two thoroughly broken classes and tones them down for an interesting and versatile blend. A Mystic Theurge you enter 4 levels early is just multiplying the power of two thoroughly broken classes by one another.

I wouldn't offer such a thing to any player unless everyone else was pulling off lots of cheese too.

Actually, it doesn't make MT any more powerful, unless you make MT not a 10-level class. Dropping the level you ENTER it doesn't increase the total caster levels at the end, just that you FINISH the class earlier. At 20th caster levels are still 15/15 (or whatever your chosen spilt is). The difference is a less difficult character to play before level 7 and a slower progression of the high level spells. Because you've finished MT by 12th level with 11/11 casting, it means you get 7th plus spells more slowly, due to you having to take normal class progression again.

Entry at 3rd puts you one caster level behind the full caster until level 12 (when you drop off more rapidly) as opposed to being three levels behind during the low-level phase. Normal MTs have to struggle through with only 2nd level spells until 9th level, by which time the full casters are throwing around 5th level spells. So, if you're concerned about game-breaking, the full casters are going to be way more problematic that MTs, whenever you enter the class.

[Ravens_cry]

That's really assuming the campaign goes that far. I have been in full fledged professionally published campaigns that end at level 13, and never one that went to 20, so early entry mystic thuerge would be a huge increase in options at a somewhat reduced power level. And there has to be some other divine/arcane theurge class you can take after mystic theurge.

[Aotrs Commander]

That's really assuming the campaign goes that far. I have been in full fledged professionally published campaigns that end at level 13, and never one that went to 20, so early entry mystic thuerge would be a huge increase in options at a somewhat reduced power level. And there has to be some other divine/arcane theurge class you can take after mystic theurge.

If it doesn't got very high level, with normal progression, there's very little reason to have MT at all, if you're not going to get much out of it. Spending the first half of the campaign sucking is not good. (Compared to other casters, which should be the metric a full-caster PrC should be measuring against, not fighters. Which, I will admit, I also significantly boost.)

I'm not aware of any other theurge classes, otherwise, you'd likely take them instead of MT, since it has no other features apart from the dual-casting.

For the record, the four campaigns I'm running or planning to run next will be ending in the 17-Epic level range. So in my case, it will go on that long.

[WarKitty]

I sometimes think people on this forum forget there's other reasons to take a class than how much power it provides...

[Ravens_cry]

I sometimes think people on this forum forget there's other reasons to take a class than how much power it provides...

*gets out the fire extinguisher and gets ready to call emergency services*

[dragonsamurai77]

It says in the flaw that you lose the feat if you ever regain your sight.

So, if someone cured him, he'd lose all his power...

That just made we wonder something: If you lose a feat by neutralizing a flaw, and that feat was a prereq for a PrC you already have levels in, what happens?

[Aotrs Commander]

I sometimes think people on this forum forget there's other reasons to take a class than how much power it provides...

Let's face it, MT doesn't have much on the way of flavour. I don't think there's anyone who plays an MT for the PrC flavour (unlike many other PrCs which are much more conceptually flavourful). You play as mystic theurge because you want to cast arcane and divine spells, which is the one and only thing MT actually gives you. I just don't think that you should be penalised until 7th level for wanting to play that (especially in a mid-to-high optimisation like I play in).

[Ravens_cry]

That just made we wonder something: If you lose a feat by neutralizing a flaw, and that feat was a prereq for a PrC you already have levels in, what happens?

You lose all benefits of the prestige class. In short, you're deep in the guano.

[WarKitty]

Let's face it, MT doesn't have much on the way of flavour. I don't think there's anyone who plays an MT for the PrC flavour (unlike many other PrCs which are much more conceptually flavourful). You play as mystic theurge because you want to cast arcane and divine spells, which is the one and only thing MT actually gives you. I just don't think that you should be penalised until 7th level for wanting to play that (especially in a mid-to-high optimisation like I play in).

"I want to cast arcane and divine spells" is in and of itself a choice that can be made for flavor. But yes, you are right that you shouldn't be penalized for it.

[Ravens_cry]

"I want to cast arcane and divine spells" is in and of itself a choice that can be made for flavor. But yes, you are right that you shouldn't be penalized for it.

Penalized as brutally as you are? Maybe not. But your getting the biggest, most twisting the game-iest, part of the game, spells, from two usually disparate sources. While balance isn't my main concern, why shouldn't you get some reduction in capability in exchange for diversity?

[Aotrs Commander]

"I want to cast arcane and divine spells" is in and of itself a choice that can be made for flavor. But yes, you are right that you shouldn't be penalized for it.

This is my I'm looking at things like MT as hybrid classes to opposed to PrC, things that should be slightly behind the full-progression classes, but don't give you anything new. Meaning you can play your concept from lower level.

(One of the others I did a while back on these very boards was the Skulking Theurge, a divine/ (rogue or ninja or scout) PrC, something that was painfully lacking before even with Rich's Divine Trickster. And it got put right into use. Hell, I wish I'd used it for my conversion of Night Below, because it would have made the numerous Kuo-Toa Whips (Clr/Rog) actually much more dangerous!)

The way I look at it is that casting multiclassing is pretty poor. AD&D had your fighter/mage or fighter/rogue only a level behind your full progression, so aiming for being 80-90% of your full progression sounds about right to me. (Instead of about 50%, which, barring MT and it's like, you tend to get otherwise.) So, like a lot of other bits of D&D which need a boost (e.g Fighters, Rogues, Monks) I give 'em a leg-up.

[WarKitty]

Penalized as brutally as you are? Maybe not. But your getting the biggest, most twisting the game-iest, part of the game, spells, from two usually disparate sources. While balance isn't my main concern, why shouldn't you get some reduction in capability in exchange for diversity?

True, depending on the classes. The original character I was thinking of was bard/favored soul, which doesn't get you quite as much game-breaking power, plus you lose your other bardic toys.

This is my I'm looking at things like MT as hybrid classes to opposed to PrC, things that should be slightly behind the full-progression classes, but don't give you anything new. Meaning you can play your concept from lower level.

(One of the others I did a while back on these very boards was the Skulking Theurge, a divine/ (rogue or ninja or scout) PrC, something that was painfully lacking before even with Rich's Divine Trickster. And it got put right into use. Hell, I wish I'd used it for my conversion of Night Below, because it would have made the numerous Kuo-Toa Whips (Clr/Rog) actually much more dangerous!)

The way I look at it is that casting multiclassing is pretty poor. AD&D had your fighter/mage or fighter/rogue only a level behind your full progression, so aiming for being 80-90% of your full progression sounds about right to me. (Instead of about 50%, which, barring MT and it's like, you tend to get otherwise.) So, like a lot of other bits of D&D which need a boost (e.g Fighters, Rogues, Monks) I give 'em a leg-up.

This seems to be a pervasive problem with 3.5. There are a lot of really cool builds that require a pretty heavy initial investment, which means if you're playing a 1-20 game you have to put up with several levels of being use-impaired.