Bard Clarification - Battle Dancer Feat (3.5)

[Exanedral]

Okay, so the folks down at Wizards no longer handle 3.5 questions, but I've got one that maybe some folks here can help me with.

In PHB2, there is a feat called Battle Dancer. The flavor text states "You strike at your foes in time with the music you sing or in cadence with an oration you deliver." The benefit to the feat is that "during any round in which you grant any ally a bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, or saves with one of your bardic music abilities, you gain a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls if you move at least one square before attacking."

Now, Bardic Music costs a standard action to use, and a standard action on each subsequent round to maintain. How in the world is a bard supposed to strike in time with his music when he cannot attack while performing, much less attack and move? I know Inspire Courage (IC) lasts 5 rounds after you initially use it. So would you use IC on round 1, and then on rounds 2-6 be able to use Battle Dancer? Did they just mess up the flavor text?

One of my players wants to go War Chanter (CWar) and this feat sounds perfect, but it doesn't seem to make any g*dd*mn sense.

Thanks!

[HunterOfJello]

You have it right. Singing and fighting don't mix. You can stop singing and then fight. There are ways to get around this, but in general Battle Dancer isn't a very good feat for that reason.

Lingering Song will allow your music to last for 1 minute after you finish singing, which can improve battle dancer signifigantly. However, Snowflake Wardance is a superior feat if you're looking for a melee bard.


In general, you're stuck performing as a standard action every round if you want to keep up your music. However, you can take Melodic Casting to be able to cast while singing and eventually grab the Swift Concentration skill trick to be able to use only a Swift Action to maintain the music.

~

If you're looking for information about how to optimize your bard, check out the Bard Handbook.

[Tyger]

No no no no...

From the SRD (with emphasis added):

Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word.

So yes, to START singing takes a standard action. Nothing in Inspire Courage (for example) says it requires concentration so you can sing in round one, then fight in rounds 2-10000 whilst singing to your heart's content. Otherwise Melodic casting wouldn't do anything, as you would never have a standard action to use while performing.

[HunterOfJello]

Nothing in Inspire Courage (for example) says it requires concentration so you can sing in round one, then fight in rounds 2-10000 whilst singing to your heart's content.

I think you might be missing the point. But here's the entry:

Inspire Courage (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill
can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including
himself ), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat
abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing.
The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5
rounds thereafter.

As mentioned in the OP's post, Inspire Courage lasts for as long as the bard is singing and for 5 round afterwards.


Melodic Casting allows the bardic music to work differently for spells and spell-like abilities. You're still screwed for melee.

Benefit: Whenever a Concentration check would be
required to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability (such as
when you cast defensively or are distracted or injured while
casting), you can make a Perform check instead.
In addition, you can cast spells and activate magic items
by command word or spell completion while using a bardic
music ability. Bardic music abilities that require concentration
still take a standard action to perform.

So, when you use Inspire Courage and Melodic Casting you do a concentration check by using the concentration skill or a perform skill check and then you maintain the benefit of Inspire Courage while casting a spell or using a spell-like ability at the same time.

[kestrel404]

Indeed. The only bardic music uses that state that they require concentration (and therefore require you to use a standard action every round) are Fascinate and Inspire Competence. There are some from bardic prestige classes as well, but most bard music requires a FREE ACTION to maintain.

Casting usually ends bardic music primarily because all bard spells require verbal components (and cannot be silenced) and you can't "cast and sing" at the same time.

[Tyger]

I think you might be missing the point. But here's the entry:

So, when you use Inspire Courage and Melodic Casting you do a concentration check by using the concentration skill or a perform skill check and then you maintain the benefit of Inspire Courage while casting a spell or using a spell-like ability at the same time.

Nope. Nothing in Inspire Courage says it takes concentration. Therefore it doesn't require concentration to maintain. So I am not missing the point.

[Exanedral]

Okay, so wait. It actually says

Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic
music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must
take a standard action each round to maintain the ability.

But only a few abilities specifically say that they require you to continue concentrating. Fascinate, Song of Freedom, and Inspire Competence are the only ones that explicitly state that they require concentration to maintain.

Wow. Okay, that totally flips what I thought I knew about bards. So... if it doesn't take a standard action, is it just a free action to sing/chant every round?

Answered already. Thanks everybody!

I do love speedy service.

[HunterOfJello]

Ugh. Now I'm getting confused. The only entries that even mention the word Concentration after the Bardic Music explanation are Song of Freedom and Fascinate (which mentions it in reference to not breaking concentration while performing Fascinate, which implies that concentration must be maintained during Fascinate).

The explanation of which songs require what actions and forms of concentration would have been useful in the PHB.

[Exanedral]

Yeah. It's hidden a little bit in the text. Like I said, Song of Freedom, Fascinate, and Inspire Competence all mention that they require some form of concentration.

That clears up quite a bit about bards, and makes me respect their usefulness quite a bit more.

The more you know...

Oh, and while we're on the topic of bards, does anyone know if any multiclass feats exist that improve Barbarian/Bards? Like Ascetic Stalker, Daring Outlaw, etc.?

[HunterOfJello]

Oh, and while we're on the topic of bards, does anyone know if any multiclass feats exist that improve Barbarian/Bards? Like Ascetic Stalker, Daring Outlaw, etc.?

I would suggest checking out the Bard Handbook and d20 Index Feat section for those sorts of things.

Chaos Music increases your bard level for Bardic Music by +4 up to your HD. Practiced Spellcaster has the same effect for spellcasting.

Loresong from Dungeonscape would be a nice ACF. The Eberron Bard AFC would also be useful.

Snowflake Wardance is a preferred feat for melee bards.

The Consolidated Barbarian Handbook may help you with barbarian feat and Alternate Class Feature choices.

[Exanedral]

Cool, thanks.

So, here's another question:

Can a raging barbarian initiate a bardic music effect? Can he maintain one?

It seems like RAW it doesn't prohibit a raging barbarian from doing either, but it's hard to tell what makes the most sense.

[Ernir]

Cool, thanks.

So, here's another question:

Can a raging barbarian initiate a bardic music effect? Can he maintain one?

It seems like RAW it doesn't prohibit a raging barbarian from doing either, but it's hard to tell what makes the most sense.

Well, the relevant text is this:

While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function.

What constitutes as using the skill is a question you probably have to ask your DM. Not all of the Bardic Music uses require you to actually roll (notably, Inspire Courage doesn't), but they still require you to have a number of ranks in the perform skill in question, and the wording is "can use his music or poetics to...", which at least implies that the skill in question is involved.

Personally, I'd just take "Perform: Crazy Battle Mantra" and ask the DM how the rules could possibly disallow that.

[Last Laugh]

Well, the relevant text is this:
What constitutes as using the skill is a question you probably have to ask your DM. Not all of the Bardic Music uses require you to actually roll (notably, Inspire Courage doesn't), but they still require you to have a number of ranks in the perform skill in question, and the wording is "can use his music or poetics to...", which at least implies that the skill in question is involved.

Personally, I'd just take "Perform: Crazy Battle Mantra" and ask the DM how the rules could possibly disallow that.

Perform: Stabbing
So good at stabbing it becomes an art form. (I can only imagine that performances for money are more akin to muggings.)

[Exanedral]

I think they mention that, akin to Perform (stabbing), you cannot use Perform (weapon drill) for Bardic Music effects.

Perform (oratory) covers chanting and such, and as the DM, I think I'm going to say that you can maintain a bardic music effect while raging as long as you're using some kind of rhythmic song or chant (So, Perform (sing) or (oratory)). I don't think playing the lute, for example, is going to work during a rage.

The standard action to initiate a song requires too much concentration on the part of a raging barbarian, but as a free action, the maintaining is easy.

This seems to make the most sense for my game.

[Pechvarry]

I know it wasn't what the OP wanted to hear, but I feel like it needs to be said: this Battle Dancer feat is very terrible. Lots of stipulations to maintain a measly +2 bonus isn't what makes it terrible -- it's just what makes it weak.

What makes it terrible is that it's supplying a morale bonus. In all likelihood, you're singing Inspire Courage and giving yourself a +2 morale bonus on attack/damage/etc. This means you won't even gain any benefit from Battle Dancer.

Horrible feat design.

[Exanedral]

Wow. That is absolutely terrible. I can't believe they didn't think about that when they designed it. It is essentially one of the most useless feats ever, RAW.

Maybe I'll see if any other type of bonus fits and change it. I'm DMing, and I think the feat is thematically interesting. But you're right, the rules make zero sense.

[Fizban]

Consider the Snowflake Wardance feat from Frostburn. It lets you burn a use of bardic music to add your charisma bonus to attacks for a while, with a duration based on your dancing ability (the catch is that you can only use slashing weapons, and can't use them two-handed). Stacks with Inspire Courage just fine, a staple of fighting bards everywhere.

[Exanedral]

Right. I believe a few others already mentioned that one. And yes, it stacks with Inspire Courage, but Battle Dancer specifically makes it so you get a benefit when fighting with an active song.

If another bonus makes sense (I haven't had time to look the types over again), then I'll fix Battle Dancer. Otherwise I'll just have my player use Snowflake Wardance.

[Pechvarry]

Snowflake is a solid feat. Quite well designed, though I think it leaves you winded or fatigued or something afterwards. It'll either work very well with Barbarian Rage, with overlapping negatives, or it'll be terribad -- causing a wardancing, raging barbarian to go straight to exhausted for the next 8 hours.

If you're bent on making Battle Dancer work, I'd consider not only changing the bonus type (untyped would be the simplest fix), but change the value to be a bit more sliding scale. Perhaps +2 bonus, and an additional +1 for every 5 ranks in perform (+3 at 5 ranks, +4 at 10, +5 at 15 ranks, +6?! at 20) or some such. Change the progression to suit what you think is balanced, and remember he'll be stacking on Inspire Courage.

[Fizban]

Another way to force it into being useful would be trading away the bonus to hit. Use a masterwork instrument to lower the hit and raise the damage, or use Dragonfire Inspiration to trade all the morale bonus for extra fire dice. Of course Dragonfire Inspiration takes a bajillion feats, but it wouldn't overlap with Battle Dancer.

[Exanedral]

Yeah, you could do it with a masterwork instrument, but I mostly want this character to focus on singing or chanting. And even then at high enough levels, the bonus from Battle Dancer is pretty much lost in the bonuses from Inspire Courage.

I know this doesn't have to be true for everyone, but my ruling is that Battle Dancer is out. Snowflake Wardance is more or less the same thing thematically, but it makes a bit more sense.

Since a character can get a bonus from Inspire Courage, and then using Snowflake Wardance, can add his Charisma bonus to his attacks, that sounds like enough of a powerful melee bard to me.