What prerequisites do you wish you could get rid of?

[WarKitty]

I'm aiming this primarily at people who either play entirely low-level games or at least start in the lower levels. The ones where your entire cool build isn't going to see play until at least level 12, and you're starting at level 1.

A couple examples of my own:
Augment Summoning and it's followup feats. Spell focus (conjuration) is useless.

Master of Many Forms: Great dip. Lousy prerequisites.

[mucat]

Augment Summoning and it's followup feats. Spell focus (conjuration) is useless.

Not entirely. Grease, Glitterdust, Web, and Stinking Cloud are all Conjurations that allow a save, and they're staple low-level spells.

[gallagher]

monastic training for a tash. build

[WarKitty]

Not entirely. Grease, Glitterdust, Web, and Stinking Cloud are all Conjurations that allow a save, and they're staple low-level spells.

Ok, when you're playing a summoning-focused druid it's useless. Which is the build that allows the cool stuff that comes after Augment Summoning.

[mucat]

Ok, when you're playing a summoning-focused druid it's useless. Which is the build that allows the cool stuff that comes after Augment Summoning.

Ah, point taken. I had a summoning-focused wizard in mind.

[Glimbur]

Whirlwind Attack. There's no need for it to require Spring Attack et al.

For that matter, at the very least cut out Dodge from the Spring Attack line.

[Darrin]

Augment Summoning and it's followup feats. Spell focus (conjuration) is useless.

There's a way around that. Take Planar Touchstone, link it to the Catalogues of Enlightenment (Planar Handbook) to pick up the Dragon Below domain power (Eberron Campaign Setting), and you get Augment Summoning as a bonus feat without having to take Spell Focus (Conjuration).

The prereqs that tend to boil my blood:

Alertness. Adventurers go into places where the ceilings, floors, and furniture attack them, and they can die from doing things like listening at doors (ear seekers). Can you seriously call any adventurer not "alert" to danger from sometimes bizarre directions? Likewise, a 1st level wizard is "alert" due to his familiar, but a 10th level ranger who maxes out his spot ranks without the feat is a heckuva lot more alert than someone who took a nearly useless "+2/+2" feat. Which one would you rather have on watch?

Weapon Expertise. There are a bunch of important tactical feats that require it, but Int < 13, sorry, *DENIED*.

Dodge + Mobility. Why are these always required together? Might as well combine them into the same feat.

[mangosta71]

+1 BAB for Weapon Finesse. It's been said many times on these boards that the characters who typically get the most use from it don't get full BAB progression, and thus can't take it at level 1 by RAW.

[Mystify]

Toughness. As a prerequisite for anything. Its possibly useful as a level one, but 3 extra hit points is a lousy return for a feat, esp. if you actually want to be tough. The improved toughness feat(I forget which book) is an extra hit point per hit dice, and is worthwhile. It is flat out better than toughness once you hit level 3 or higher, but things use toughness as a prereq.

[mikethepoor]

I would get rid of Point Blank Shot being a prerequisite for Precise Shot. Having to take one feat to not be useless at ranged combat is rough enough, but two?

[CockroachTeaParty]

I would get rid of Point Blank Shot being a prerequisite for Precise Shot. Having to take one feat to not be useless at ranged combat is rough enough, but two?

Still, realistically, it's harder to shoot something in the middle of a frenzied battle than to hit it with a big stick.

[Marnath]

Still, realistically, it's harder to shoot something in the middle of a frenzied battle than to hit it with a big stick.

Yeah, but how is being good at shooting at close range related to not hitting your buddy?

[WarKitty]

Still, realistically, it's harder to shoot something in the middle of a frenzied battle than to hit it with a big stick.

Realistically if your whole class idea is "shoot things," that should be part of your training. Not an extra feat you add on.

Another question: Many people have argued that useless or difficult prerequisites are there to balance out the more powerful PrC's/feats. Which may be true, but it still makes them highly impractical if you're not starting at that high a level. How would you redo the balance so you're not getting more powerful stuff for free, but you don't have to go through several levels of suck either?

[Chrono22]

Well, I'd change power attack, combat expertise, and weapon finesse. Instead of being stand alone feats, character could gain the ability to use them for free as part of an attack action.
Fighting Defensively - you take a penalty up to your BAB on attack rolls for 1 round, to gain half that amount as a dodge bonus to armor class.
Power Attacking - you take a penalty up to your BAB on attack rolls for 1 round, and apply half of that amount as bonus damage to your attacks.
Finesse - A character wielding a light weapon can substitute his Dexterity bonus in place of his Strength bonus for attack rolls.

The feats themselves would just increase the benefits of these tactics to 1:1, and in the case of Weapon Finesse, you could choose to treat a specific weapon you are proficient with, as being a light weapon.

[bloodtide]

Decipher script and Escape artist for Arcane Trickster.


Improved sunder for blackguards.

[SurlySeraph]

BAB requirements greater than 5 tend to annoy me, especially when they undermine the advantages of the class. Divine Crusader gets fast casting progression - it seems to be intended for paladins who get to 7th level and say "Oh God, I should have been a cleric" - but since you can't enter until after 7th level you won't get 9th level spells before everyone else gets them. And since you can only cast spells from a single domain, you'll have nowhere near their versatility. And for that privilege, you get your BAB reduced to 3/4s and no useful class features.

Same with the ToB classes that require +10 BAB. Sure, Island in Time is cool, but it's not so overwhelming that a 15th-level character would break the game with it. Deepstone Sentinel is like a fixed Dwarven Defender... except that now even fewer dwarves can enter it. And why don't Ruby Knight Vindicators and Jade Phoenix Mages have to wait that long?

Useless prereq feats are annoying in general, but Dodge and Mobility in particular. The semi-useful feats that count as Dodge for prereqs help, but it's still annoying.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Toughness. As a prerequisite for anything. Its possibly useful as a level one, but 3 extra hit points is a lousy return for a feat, esp. if you actually want to be tough. The improved toughness feat(I forget which book) is an extra hit point per hit dice, and is worthwhile. It is flat out better than toughness once you hit level 3 or higher, but things use toughness as a prereq.

Good thing Improved Toughness can replace Toughness as a prerequisite then, no?

Edit: At least, I thought, but reading the entry in Complete Warrior I can't seem to find that again. Possible I imagined it.

[balistafreak]

Cooperative Spell for Mage of the Arcane Order is nothing but a straightup feat tax. I'm not saying Mage of the Arcane Order doesn't need a feat tax for what it accomplishes (Spellpool is awesome) but Cooperative Spell is such a useless feat, it's not even funny.

[Coidzor]

Finesse - A character wielding a light weapon can substitute his Dexterity bonus in place of his Strength bonus for attack rolls.

The feats themselves would just increase the benefits of these tactics to 1:1, and in the case of Weapon Finesse, you could choose to treat a specific weapon you are proficient with, as being a light weapon.

Why bother keeping weapon finesse as a feat if it's effect only applies to one of the possible weapons?

[Chrono22]

So the halfling can use his dex with a spiked chain.

[Urpriest]

10 ranks in heal for Graft Flesh. Works for monsters I guess, but the whole Fleshwarper PrC seems designed around the idea that it can be taken earlier. And it's such an awesome PrC, it's a shame you have to do such weird things to enter it.

[gorfnab]

Point Blank Shot and Far Shot for Invisible Blade. Since the class doesn't allow you to do ranged feinting then why are these feats required?

[Coidzor]

So the halfling can use his dex with a spiked chain.

Except the feat already let him do that. Or with a courtblade or with a rapier.

Here he'd have to get the feat again or take the time and money to retrain it.

[WarKitty]

Cooperative Spell for Mage of the Arcane Order is nothing but a straightup feat tax. I'm not saying Mage of the Arcane Order doesn't need a feat tax for what it accomplishes (Spellpool is awesome) but Cooperative Spell is such a useless feat, it's not even funny.

Classic example, although single-feat taxes aren't as bad because presumably you're taking them as you're about to enter the PrC. It's the classes that make you take 2 or 3 useless feats (BoED I'm looking at you) instead of something actually useful, especially if it's a melee PrC. Those annoy me.

[Chrono22]

Oh, well I missed the fine print about spiked chains , but it could be a greatsword or other heavy weapon instead.

Why do you care?

[FMArthur]

I really don't like Prestige Classes that you can't enter until 8th or 11th level (or even later!). I play most of my games from about 5 to 13th level. I get it if the class is fairly powerful and doesn't have a monopoly on the class concept, but sometimes I just don't see the reason. Cavalier, Divine Crusader, Archmage, etc wouldn't cause any disasters if they were available much sooner.

[Fisticuffs]

The gimicky feats, found in any splatbook that are requirments for Prc, that only give you a +1 or +2 to some specific thing or only at some unusual time/circumstance. (Examples include Court of The Stars from BoED or True Believer for CD.)

Any Prc that requires three feats, typically having little to do with one another.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Everyone in this thread needs to read my Prereq handbook.

I really don't like Prestige Classes that you can't enter until 8th or 11th level (or even later!)

example?

[Starbuck_II]

Everyone in this thread needs to read my Prereq handbook.

example?

Sublime Chord requires Bard 10 I think so you need to have gained enough XP to level 11 to enter.

[Dr.Epic]

Alignment restriction on Frenzied Berserker.