Redundancies within Essentials (4e)

[Shatteredtower]

Never mind how much is just recycled 4th edition with errata. We knew that going in.

What annoys me is the number of times whole sections of rules are repeated over the Essentials series. The skill list and rules take up over 20 pages in each of the RC, HotFL, and HotFK. The latter two also repeat another 20+ pages for equipment, deviating only on magic equipment lists, and over 15 pages for feats, though HotFK has a few unique ones. The glossary (another 10 pages) is also duplicated, though I don't mind this one.

I dislike paying for the same content multiple times. especially in the range of 20% in two books. It doesn't help when you see what didn't get space, such as barbarians, monster scaling, and gnomes or deva.

(But ^&%$#@!, @#$@%^!& drow? They had room for those.)

[Kurald Galain]

"Sometimes when you're in battle, you will want to swing your sword in an impressive and convoluted way, knowing that this will befuddle your foes and will make it easier for you to hit them quickly afterwards in the same combat.

Impressively Befuddling Sword Swing (utility level 2)
You swing your sword in an impressive and convoluted way, to befuddle your enemies.
Free action, melee range, one target.
Trigger: you swing your sword.
Effect: you befuddle your enemy, and it grants combat advantage until the end of your next turn."

See also: department of redundancy department.

[Shatteredtower]

As Bob is made witless, I had not antipated such an answer. Well played.

[Blackfang108]

"Sometimes when you're in battle, you will want to swing your sword in an impressive and convoluted way, knowing that this will befuddle your foes and will make it easier for you to hit them quickly afterwards in the same combat.

Impressively Befuddling Sword Swing (utility level 2)
You swing your sword in an impressive and convoluted way, to befuddle your enemies.
Free action, melee range, one target.
Trigger: you swing your sword.
Effect: you befuddle your enemy, and it grants combat advantage until the end of your next turn."

See also: department of redundancy department.

Not having Essentials, is this an actual power?

[Shatteredtower]

Not having Essentials, is this an actual power?

No, not really.

I kind of like the new druid and the new half-elf option, but did humans need a full entry in both books?

[Mordokai]

Out of idle curiosity, what did half elves got?

[DragonOfUndeath]

I kind of like the new druid and the new half-elf option, but did humans need a full entry in both books?

obviously cause humans are TEH ROXXORZ

[Shatteredtower]

Out of idle curiosity, what did half elves got?

In lieu of dilettante, they get an encounter power that affects either them or a nearby ally for one of four options: a saving throw, a free shift movement, or a bonus to an attack roll or skill check.

As for humans, I wonder if it's because the designers think they're not being played enough, considering how often most civilizations they players tend to move through are human. Who knows?

[Felhammer]

WotC has stated they decided to repeat some of the material across the books because they want to make sure everyone at the table has equal access to the rules. If a new player picks up Heroes of the Fallen Lands, they want to make sure he doesn't have to buy Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms to get the basic rules.

The Rules Compendium was designed for everyone, including DMs who wouldn't necessarily have purchased HotFL or HotFK.

It's the price one has to pay when WotC decided to break up and disseminate the PHB material amongst 3 books. :(

[Kurald Galain]

Not having Essentials, is this an actual power?

No The point I was making is that instead of one block of power text, all 4.4 powers have two blocks, and that for several powers both of these flavor blocks simply restate what the power's rules text does. It feels to me like artificially inflated page count.

WotC has stated they decided to repeat some of the material across the books because they want to make sure everyone at the table has equal access to the rules.

Yes, but I find it annoying that almost all of the items from HOFK are already in HOFL. They have so many thousands of items they could have picked...

[Blackfang108]

No The point I was making is that instead of one block of power text, all 4.4 powers have two blocks, and that for several powers both of these flavor blocks simply restate what the power's rules text does. It feels to me like artificially inflated page count.


Yes, but I find it annoying that almost all of the items from HOFK are already in HOFL. They have so many thousands of items they could have picked...

I find it annoying that they marked items "Common, Uncommon, Rare"

[Felhammer]

I find it annoying that they marked items "Common, Uncommon, Rare"

I actually like that the concept but I *hate* how they gave us a list of 50 common items and said 'everything else is uncommon!'

It just smacks of laziness and ensured the issue would be quite divisive.

[Jaidu]

No The point I was making is that instead of one block of power text, all 4.4 powers have two blocks, and that for several powers both of these flavor blocks simply restate what the power's rules text does. It feels to me like artificially inflated page count.

I think this was done in part to counter the criticism that 4e products are all crunch and no fluff. This is one of the major reasons for the existence of the Monster Vault. There's certainly a lot of fluff in the Essentials books compared to a lot of the previous 4e material out there. Still, some of it is very forced and unnatural. I don't really need a description of what power strike looks like. "You hit something, much in the way you normally would, but harder."

Yes, but I find it annoying that almost all of the items from HOFK are already in HOFL. They have so many thousands of items they could have picked...

I agree entirely.

[dsmiles]

I find it annoying that they marked items "Common, Uncommon, Rare"

I unconditionally hate that. I hate that with the white-hot intensity of a thousand suns. Who are they to tell me what items are common in my campaign world? Or tell me what items I can give out to characters at what levels?
[/nerdrage]

[Kurald Galain]

I think this was done in part to counter the criticism that 4e products are all crunch and no fluff. This is one of the major reasons for the existence of the Monster Vault. There's certainly a lot of fluff in the Essentials books compared to a lot of the previous 4e material out there. Still, some of it is very forced and unnatural. I don't really need a description of what power strike looks like. "You hit something, much in the way you normally would, but harder."

Yeah, that's a good point. I wish they would have added some fluff about elf society, or the Dark Cult Of Ebon Night, or one of those fallen empires that every race seems to have: fluff you can actually base a story on. In my opinion, meaningless fluff is worse than no fluff.

I actually like that the concept but I *hate* how they gave us a list of 50 common items and said 'everything else is uncommon!'

(edit) This, too. I'm don't care either way about the concept, but this implementation is really bad. Interestingly, several of the game developers have publically stated that they, themselves, don't use the rarity system.

[Reverent-One]

I unconditionally hate that. I hate that with the white-hot intensity of a thousand suns. Who are they to tell me what items are common in my campaign world? Or tell me what items I can give out to characters at what levels?
[/nerdrage]

They're suggestions for DMs to use as a default if they don't want to put any more thought into it, they're not saying "you have to do this or you're doing it wrong".

[Blackfang108]

They're suggestions for DMs to use as a default if they don't want to put any more thought into it, they're not saying "you have to do this or you're doing it wrong".

Um...

Then why can't I figure out how to turn it off in my copy of Character builder?

[Reverent-One]

Um...

Then why can't I figure out how to turn it off in my copy of Character builder?

What do the item rarities actually do in the character builder? Does it limit which rarities your character can have? That wouldn't make sense for the CB to do, since even with the default rules, you'll still get the higher rarity items.

[Felhammer]

Um...

Then why can't I figure out how to turn it off in my copy of Character builder?

Because the character builder you (and everyone else) are using is going to be replaced very soon.

[Kurald Galain]

It is clear in the errata, rules compendium and DM kit that rarity is not "an option" but the official rule - the only official rule now on magic item distribution both in 4.0 and 4.4.

Of course, that won't stop DMs from doing it differently anyway, but as Oberoni said, just because you can ignore a bad rule doesn't make it any less a bad rule. For instance, Sure Strike is a crappy power, and just because I can houserule it to do +10 damage or because I can take another at-will instead doesn't magically make it less crappy. And of course, compliance is mandatory for LFR and DDE players.

[Reverent-One]

It is clear in the errata, rules compendium and DM kit that rarity is not "an option" but the official rule - the only official rule now on magic item distribution both in 4.0 and 4.4.

My use of the term "suggestion" was a slight miswording as you are correct it's an official rule, though at the same time, it's an official rule the developers don't really think you have to use to make the game work, as they've said it's not a problem if the DM just ignores the rule for their own games (and as you've pointed out they do the same themselves). It really just seems to be there for the "official play" campaigns like the LFR and Encounters to limit players minmaxing their item selection.

[Blackfang108]

It makes buying items more time-consuming, especially for individuals who may be math-weak.

And it's just stupid in the first place.

[Jaidu]

I despise the rarity system for magic items. Rather, I don't mind the idea of some magic items being more rare than others, but I think it really needs to be a DM decision for their own campaign, not RAW. But I guess that's what homebrew is for.

[Reverent-One]

It makes buying items more time-consuming, especially for individuals who may be math-weak.

How so? Did it change the pricing of the items? I hadn't heard about anything about that, though I might have missed something.

I despise the rarity system for magic items. Rather, I don't mind the idea of some magic items being more rare than others, but I think it really needs to be a DM decision for their own campaign, not RAW. But I guess that's what homebrew is for.

What about DMs that don't want to have to wade through books of items to decide which one are rarer than others? For them, having a default classification system for that is useful.

[tcrudisi]

And of course, compliance is mandatory for LFR and DDE players.

This confuses me. How are they changing LFR to instill the new item rarity rules? Considering how they do loot.

I'm about to go to a LFR convention this weekend; are all my characters suddenly illegal because they have 0 common items and 15 uncommon items?

[Jaidu]

How so? Did it change the pricing of the items? I hadn't heard about anything about that, though I might have missed something.

It changes the amount gained from selling items, and by RAW you can't purchase rare items. I don't believe you can purchase uncommon items either, but I don't remember.

Anyway, I believe the original poster was referring to the character builder, which does not allow you to purchase rare items. To work around this, one can add the item, then subtract the cost of the item from their total gold.

What about DMs that don't want to have to wade through books of items to decide which one are rarer than others? For them, having a default classification system for that is useful.

This would be fine, except that the list of common and rare items is very short, and everything else is considered uncommon. If the list was more comprehensive, it might be useful in the situation you suggest, but right now, the DMs who don't want to wade through those books will find that nearly every item is uncommon.

[Blackfang108]

How so? Did it change the pricing of the items? I hadn't heard about anything about that, though I might have missed something.

You can't use the "buy" option on Uncommon and rare items.

This means that you have to "add" the item and then subtract the gold if you are going to purchase a non-common item.

It's an unnecessary addition of steps when there could just as easily be a check-box for the rule under "campaign settings."

This is an unnecessarily Draconian way for WotC to have gone about implementing this "feature."

[Reverent-One]

Anyway, I believe the original poster was referring to the character builder, which does not allow you to purchase rare items. To work around this, one can add the item, then subtract the cost of the item from their total gold.

Oh yeah, the CB can be used to track gold, can't it? I may have forgotten about that since I've never used it for that purpose. *whistles innocently*

In that case, I do see how the rules could be an annoyance to someone who does track their gold in CB. And do agree the CB should allow that to be setting to be changed, as it already allows a number of "houserules".

This would be fine, except that the list of common and rare items is very short, and everything else is considered uncommon. If the list was more comprehensive, it might be useful in the situation you suggest, but right now, the DMs who don't want to wade through those books will find that nearly every item is uncommon.

Which is still more than having no classification for the items at all. Also, who's the say that the majority of the items being uncommon is a bad thing? Different DMs will have preferences on how to split up any item rarity.

[Kurald Galain]

This confuses me. How are they changing LFR to instill the new item rarity rules? Considering how they do loot.

Check the forums. You are allowed one rare per tier (but there isn't any way to get one), as many commons as you want (but there likely aren't any), and one uncommon per level. Most high-level characters will probably have to drop about one-quarter of their items, and all their consumables except for healing potions.

Bear in mind that this was the lenient option: an actual 4.4 campaign would give you one uncommon per two levels, and this rule was a close contender for the RPGA as well.

[kyoryu]

(edit) This, too. I'm don't care either way about the concept, but this implementation is really bad. Interestingly, several of the game developers have publically stated that they, themselves, don't use the rarity system.

It's always smelled to me like it's really for LFR, with their "magic morphing magic item" rules and the way they seem to try to insulate the game from the actual impact of DMs.