Skirmish + Teleportation = ???

[NineThePuma]

I've been thinking about using a Skirmisher character, but don't know if I can activate Skirmish if I use a teleportation power. =\ Is there a RAW thing that says no somewhere, meaning I gotta get it house ruled, or...?

[SensFan]

I don't know about the RAW interpretation, but I would certainly rule that teleportation does not trigger skirmish.

[NineThePuma]

That sort of kills my goal there =\ Ah well. Maybe I can use a Shadow Pouncer...

[Tael]

By RAW it triggers. You have moved 10 ft. or more from your original spot, nothing else matters. It may be ruled differently though. Bottom line is, as always, check with your DM.

[Kellus]

The exact text on page 12 of Complete Adventurer is that,

[the scout] deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she makes during any round in which she moves at least 10 feet.

Since it doesn't describe any limitations on how that movement is accomplished, I think it's entirely reasonable that if you have some kind of method of attacking after a teleport like Sun School or Shadow Pounce that you could use it in conjunction with it.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Andraste]

It seems like it should work. That's actually a pretty awesome idea.

[Brendan]

as long as going from point A to B counts as moving (which it kinda does) you should be fine. and be playing a really cool character.

[BridgeCity]

I wouldn't allow it. To me, the extra damage from skirmish is due to the character taking time to study the enemy and find the weakspot or most advantageous position to strike from, and I feel that it is during the movement that this study and observation is taking place. Teleporting cuts that out.

[Worira]

I wouldn't allow it. To me, the extra damage from skirmish is due to the character taking time to study the enemy and find the weakspot or most advantageous position to strike from, and I feel that it is during the movement that this study and observation is taking place. Teleporting cuts that out.

How does that make any sense? He can't study them while he's standing still?

[Psyren]

I'd allow it. It's tricky enough to get teleportation as a swift action, especially for a non-ToB martial class.

I mean, Psywars, Swordsages etc. are already doing it; it's not going to break the Scout any.

[Beelzebub1111]

I'd allow it. It's tricky enough to get teleportation as a swift action, especially for a non-ToB martial class.

I mean, Psywars, Swordsages etc. are already doing it; it's not going to break the Scout any.

Blade of Orien (Dragonmarked) can pop around as a move action, and as a capstone, can pop and full attack. They can also pop objects as a swift action, pop their allies, pop their enemies, and Pop without provoking an attack of oppritunity.

[Brendan]

I wouldn't allow it. To me, the extra damage from skirmish is due to the character taking time to study the enemy and find the weakspot or most advantageous position to strike from, and I feel that it is during the movement that this study and observation is taking place. Teleporting cuts that out.

I always thought that the movement created the opportunity for an effective and unexpected shot due to the enemy not being able to ready a defense or absorb the blow. sort of how the movement created an angle to the enemy's jugular or something. Teleportation would theoretically be even more effective for that purpose.

[NineThePuma]

@Brendan: I thought the same, fluff wise.

RAW says movement, so... Yay! =D

[dgnslyr]

Hrm, would Anklets of Translocation work here? It's a 10 ft teleport, isn't it?

[Psyren]

Blade of Orien (Dragonmarked) can pop around as a move action, and as a capstone, can pop and full attack. They can also pop objects as a swift action, pop their allies, pop their enemies, and Pop without provoking an attack of oppritunity.

I didn't say it was impossible, just tricky.

What book is that from? Sounds setting-specific.

[Beelzebub1111]

I didn't say it was impossible, just tricky.

What book is that from? Sounds setting-specific.

The book is Dragonmarked. Eberron source book. Difficult to adapt, but not impossible.

[Keld Denar]

A couple levels of Ardent with the Freedom mantle would give you Dimension Hop, a 1st level swift action 10' teleport power. That would give you a few uses per day of it, assuming you don't burn your PP on other things.

As far as fluff-wise, I always interpretted skirmish as a change in perspective. Movement is a way to change your perspective, allowing you to spot AND capitalize on openings created by disorienting your opponent. Movement via teleportation would certainly qualify in that regard.

Now you just need a skirmish/psionic advancing PrC similar to Unseen Seer or such.

[Cespenar]

By RAW, I wouldn't allow it. The character doesn't actually take an action that somehow counts to its movement limit. To nitpick even more, teleportation is IMHO defined as "changing your location without actually moving".

By RAI, however, I'd totally allow it. It's a cool move and it fits the assaulting/surprising/whatever theme in which the scout gains the damage.

[Person_Man]

IIRC, the errata specifically disallows mounted movement from triggering Skirmish. Depending on how it's worded, it may also ban teleportation. Can someone who isn't blocked at worked check?

Also, Skirmish is a HORRIBLE way to boost damage. You top out at +5d6 damage (average of 17.5) at 17th level. (More if you spend feats on it, but you could be spending the same feats on Craven, Dragonfire Inspiration, Power Attack, anything that adds extra attacks, etc). And it comes with Precision restrictions. So there's really not much reason to invest in it.

[Morph Bark]

I wouldn't allow it. To me, the extra damage from skirmish is due to the character taking time to study the enemy and find the weakspot or most advantageous position to strike from, and I feel that it is during the movement that this study and observation is taking place. Teleporting cuts that out.

Funny, I thought it more from the angle that Scouts learn to add more momentum to their attacks while they run.

[NineThePuma]

Well, teleporting behind someone and shanking them doesn't trigger Sneak Attack. I wish Swift Ambusher had let you stack the two values and have them both triggered by the circumstances that triggered one.

Ah well.

[BridgeCity]

How does that make any sense? He can't study them while he's standing still?

If he could study them while standing still, you could do away with the need for movement at all. Since there is a neccesity to move 20ft for the ability to work, this is the reason I came up with.

Funny, I thought it more from the angle that Scouts learn to add more momentum to their attacks while they run.

Except that it works for ranged shots too. You don't get more momentum by moving before shooting an arrow, so I feel this also is not a very sensible way to explain the need for movement.

I always thought that the movement created the opportunity for an effective and unexpected shot due to the enemy not being able to ready a defense or absorb the blow. sort of how the movement created an angle to the enemy's jugular or something. Teleportation would theoretically be even more effective for that purpose.

While I agree that teleportation would be more effective if that is what the movement achieved, I don't really feel that having the movement achieve that makes sense, based mostly on the fact that anyone else moving 20ft before attacking doesn't achieve the same result. I know that you can hand wave this as 'plenty of classes do the same thing without the same result' but I've just always felt that it makes sense for the scout to be trained at finding a weak spot, like a rogue is, and the movement is them searching for it. To each their own.

[Boci]

If he could study them while standing still, you could do away with the need for movement at all. Since there is a neccesity to move 20ft for the ability to work, this is the reason I came up with.

The scout still needs to move after he has studied his enemy, but how he moves is not important. At least that is how I would rule it.

[Psyren]

While I agree that teleportation would be more effective if that is what the movement achieved, I don't really feel that having the movement achieve that makes sense, based mostly on the fact that anyone else moving 20ft before attacking doesn't achieve the same result. I know that you can hand wave this as 'plenty of classes do the same thing without the same result' but I've just always felt that it makes sense for the scout to be trained at finding a weak spot, like a rogue is, and the movement is them searching for it. To each their own.

But teleportation is more effective at that, too. If I run behind you during a fight, you are going to follow my movement by turning to keep me in focus unless you have a really good reason not to. But if I teleport behind you, you're wide open; even if you do know where I went, there's going to be that moment of disorientation from my "now-you-see-me-now-you-don't" act.

Which of the two is more likely to reveal a weak spot? The teleportation.

[BridgeCity]

The scout still needs to move after he has studied his enemy, but how he moves is not important. At least that is how I would rule it.

Yeah, thats my point, this is how I would rule it. I'm not saying it is how it should be done, or that other interpretations cannot be used, I'm just saying how I would do it.

But teleportation is more effective at that, too. If I run behind you during a fight, you are going to follow my movement by turning to keep me in focus unless you have a really good reason not to. But if I teleport behind you, you're wide open; even if you do know where I went, there's going to be that moment of disorientation from my "now-you-see-me-now-you-don't" act.

Which of the two is more likely to reveal a weak spot? The teleportation.

Which completely misses what I said. If you scroll up you will see that I said that I, personally, feel that it is the time taken to study the target that allows the scout to find a weak spot, not the enemy being off guard. There are other viable ways to put an enemy off guard while standing still that don't allow you to get your skirmish.

Using feint is a good example here. If a scout feinted to put an enemy off guard they would not gain the benefit of using skirmish, even though the enemy is now, not just descriptively, but mechanically more off guard then if you teleported beside them, due to losing their dex bonus to AC. As this does not trigger skirmish damage, it makes no sense to me to say that skirmish deals with catching enemies off guard to discover weakspots. That's a rogue thing.

By teleporting, the scout is not spending any time studying their target, looking for a weak spot, so I, personally, would not rule that it works.

[ericgrau]

It's a common tactic but I don't like it. Besides violating the fluff it causes a dramatic difference in power. Ya, skirmish is so-so otherwise. But forcing people to pick certain options, leaving less room for other options, is a dull and horrible way to "fix" anything. Plus many groups don't play at that level of power.

[Koury]

It's a common tactic but I don't like it. Besides violating the fluff it causes a dramatic difference in power. Ya, skirmish is so-so otherwise. But forcing people to pick certain options, leaving less room for other options, is a dull and horrible way to "fix" anything. Plus many groups don't play at that level of power.

About 17.5 damage is enough to change power levels?

[ericgrau]

Times 4-7 attacks ya.

[NineThePuma]

That's... not really all that much better than a TWF rogue. Who can actually do it much more reliably. =|

Maybe I'm just crazy.

[crazedloon]

Times 4-7 attacks ya.

really not that impressive when a single feat and a single level of a class can gets you +20 damage on each attack (craven and rogue)