About Monks and Paladins

[Souhiro]

Am I the only one who finds the "A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level" clause abusive? It also applies to the poor mook, I mean, monk.

I had in mind a build of the "Shinto Monk", which was essentially multiclassing in one level of monk, one level of cleric, then another of monk. The GM pointed the non-multiclass clause but just said "Go for it, it's the least we can do for the poor monk".


Why are these the ONLY classes that does have that? At least, in 3P, they removed the clause...

[dsmiles]

There are also feats (feat tax) in Complete Adventurer for monk, and I think for paladin, also. Plus there's Monastic Training in the Eberron book.

[Eloel]

Monks AND paladins? This week is getting interesting

[hamishspence]

In the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book, paladins in particular have special paladin orders which get around the multiclassing issue- which generally means being allowed to advance freely in at least one class or PRC besides paladin. Sometimes it's specified, and in one case it's "paladin and any one other class".

Monks may have this too- it's been a while since I looked.

Several prestige classes say something like "a paladin who takes levels in this PRC may continue advancing as a paladin".

And I think similar PRCs exist for monks.

[dsmiles]

Perhaps Monk/Crusader would be a better choice? I'm currently playing a Monk/Warblade/Warhulk for a brawler-type character.

Several prestige classes say something like "a paladin who takes levels in this PRC may continue advancing as a paladin".

And I think similar PRCs exist for monks.

I thought that went out with 3.0. I was under the impression that in 3.5, PrCs didn't count against multiclassing restrictions.

[Cerlis]

I think its mostly flavor, Once the monk gets off "the path" shes off it.same with a paladin.

Anyways, yes the complete adventure feats not only allows you to multiclass but also give you a unique ability.

Something like "When you smite and sneak attack at the same time the person is dazed for 2 rounds" or....well basically bonuses when you combine two class abilities


Tattooed monk and drunken master are monk PrCs. Paladin have some, read justicar the other day and it had the "paladin may continue taking levels of paladin if he takes levels of this class"

[Eloel]

Take a look at Enlightened Fist from CDivine (or is it CWar?). It's basically a cleric/monk prc

[hamishspence]

Perhaps Monk/Crusader would be a better choice? I'm currently playing a Monk/Warblade/Warhulk for a brawler-type character.

I thought that went out with 3.0. I was under the impression that in 3.5, PrCs didn't count against multiclassing restrictions.

If they don't specify otherwise- I think they do count for the whole paladin/monk restriction- which is why 3.5 paladin-friendly PRCs (Grey Guard, Shadowbane Inquisitor, Witch Slayer, and so on) explicitly specify that you can continue advancing as a paladin, when you take them.

What PRCs don't count for, are multiclassing XP penalties.

[dsmiles]

Eh, must be one of us houseruled it in so long ago that no one in my group even remembers that it's a houserule.

[Frenchy147]

Just one more reason paladins are the worst class ever.

[Greenish]

Just one more reason paladins are the worst class ever.

It's not even near (unless your DM decides to play "make the paladin fall").

[Souhiro]

I think its mostly flavor, Once the monk gets off "the path" shes off it.same with a paladin.

But the same should apply to any other class.

A barbarian who sit downs and spends too many days reading magic tomes should lose the phisical build gained from years doing pushups. A rogue who takes a luxury lifes should become more laid off and careless and losing the most cutting edge techniques, and a wizard could get "off the path" as easily as monks and palas.

But only those two have that penalty.

[dsmiles]

A barbarian who sit downs and spends too many days reading magic tomes should lose the phisical build gained from years doing pushups.

But think of all the rotator cuff injuries reading those books would prevent!

[Aotrs Commander]

Like the other ridiculous alignment and multiclass restrictions, I tossed that rule out a long time ago. (Okay, I do enforce Paladins as LG, but that's the only one in any class I bother with.)

[Myth]

Both classes are just so good they had to be restricted in some way.

The paladin gets full BAB. FULL BAB! He can roll a d20 to see if he can roll a d8 to see how much damage he will do! BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! This bad boy has a MOUNT. It's like a donkey, but better! It's very robust and will last trough all but the most epic of fights! He also gets detect evil at will. AT WILL!! Imagine the versatility. Like if he sees a pack of zombies - DETECT EVIL! He sees a tree - DETECT EVIL! This is a bottomless well of awesome! A Wizard could only dream of such power! Plus he can also heal, and basically makes Clerics useless.

The Monk? He gets a Slowfall effect! It's like a ring of Feather Falling but free and not quite as foolproof. BUT IT'S FREE! He also has spell resistance. Do you know what killed Larloch and made him a Lich? An 11th level Monk THAT'S WHAT! They are immune to magic and can basically never be hurt when falling off a tree (and everyone loves climbing trees). Monks also get awesome FREE weapons. At level 16 they become so damaging they kill everything in one hit (so they don't progress in damage after that. There is no point).

Yeah i think the multiclassing penalties are fine.

[hamishspence]

But the same should apply to any other class.

A barbarian who sit downs and spends too many days reading magic tomes should lose the phisical build gained from years doing pushups. A rogue who takes a luxury lifes should become more laid off and careless and losing the most cutting edge techniques, and a wizard could get "off the path" as easily as monks and palas.

But only those two have that penalty.

It's more the "once you stop, you can't start again" that's the problem.

A barbarian who becomes lawful for a while loses his rage- but promptly gets it back once he becomes nonlawful again- and can continue advancing in barbarian.

But a standard monk (or paladin) who takes levels in another class, can never take levels in the original class again, even if they lose no powers. Unless they are in one of those special orders, or take feats to allow them to multiclass freely.

[Leon]

Take a look at Enlightened Fist from CDivine (or is it CWar?). It's basically a cleric/monk prc

Sacred Fist (Complete Divine)
Enlightened Fist (Complete Arcane) is the Arcane Caster/Monk PrC

[Yuki Akuma]

Illumians, masters of multiclassing that they are, can freely multiclass into and out of Paladin and Monk all they like.

Is there nothing the (human) subtype can't do?

[Psyren]

Why would you multiclass BACK to monk anyway?

[Yuki Akuma]

...Um.

Good question.

Evasion?

[Kaulesh]

Both classes are just so good they had to be restricted in some way.

The paladin gets full BAB. FULL BAB! He can roll a d20 to see if he can roll a d8 to see how much damage he will do! BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! This bad boy has a MOUNT. It's like a donkey, but better! It's very robust and will last trough all but the most epic of fights! He also gets detect evil at will. AT WILL!! Imagine the versatility. Like if he sees a pack of zombies - DETECT EVIL! He sees a tree - DETECT EVIL! This is a bottomless well of awesome! A Wizard could only dream of such power! Plus he can also heal, and basically makes Clerics useless.

The Monk? He gets a Slowfall effect! It's like a ring of Feather Falling but free and not quite as foolproof. BUT IT'S FREE! He also has spell resistance. Do you know what killed Larloch and made him a Lich? An 11th level Monk THAT'S WHAT! They are immune to magic and can basically never be hurt when falling off a tree (and everyone loves climbing trees). Monks also get awesome FREE weapons. At level 16 they become so damaging they kill everything in one hit (so they don't progress in damage after that. There is no point).

Yeah i think the multiclassing penalties are fine.

You have opened my eyes to the light. I'm going to run off to Finding Players right now, find the first gestalt game I can, and apply as a human Paladin//Monk. I shall be unstoppable!

[Myth]

You have opened my eyes to the light. I'm going to run off to Finding Players right now, find the first gestalt game I can, and apply as a human Paladin//Monk. I shall be unstoppable!

Be careful that's pretty much Tier 0 right there friend. They have perfect synergy because the Monk has really good stats anyway, so he might as well use that 18 Cha for something, and the Paladin comes right then. Don't listen to those people telling you to take the feat allowing Paladin to use Wis instead of Cha because a good leader has to have good Cha (WOTC explicitly states that to get good at Diplomacy and Bluff you need high Cha)

OTOH is the PbP scene here good? I use ENWorld but it's been... Lacking as of late. I might consider joining up here.

[Telonius]

...Um.

Good question.

Evasion?

At level 2: +1BAB, +1 to all saves, Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows, and an odd collection of class skills that could conceivably help a really weird build get early entry into a PrC. Other than that, I've got nothing.

[grarrrg]

Both classes are just so good they had to be restricted in some way.

The paladin gets...

The Monk? He gets...

I must disagree. The Monk doesn't even get a Familiar!
The Paladin maybe, he at least has a mount. It's no Familiar though.

If they had Familiars, they would both easily be Tier -1 (that's tier negative one).

[Callista]

There's no good reason to go back to either class. The PrCs available are just as good or better (in the monk's case you can really only get better). They do mean you have to carefully plan paladin/X or monk/X builds, and you're probably going to be playing Human or else something with a favored class in either one, but you'd be doing that anyway, right?

So in general this is just for flavor. It doesn't really hamper you mechanically. The flavor of it--the idea that being a paladin or a monk takes dedication--makes sense to me.

[Myth]

I must disagree. The Monk doesn't even get a Familiar!
The Paladin maybe, he at least has a mount. It's no Familiar though.

If they had Familiars, they would both easily be Tier -1 (that's tier negative one).

The Paladin doesn't need one because he has d10 HD and that makes him more robust than a squishy Wizard, so he doesn't need the extra boost from a Familiar.

Monks are pretty much invulnerable, as they get SR and have high AC. Familliars would serve RP purposes only, but I think they were scrapped for flavor.

[grarrrg]

The Paladin doesn't need one because he has d10 HD and that makes him more robust than a squishy Wizard, so he doesn't need the extra boost from a Familiar.

The Paladin ONLY gets d10hd, the Lightning Warrior at least gets d20. Still no Familiar though, although at least the Lightning Warrior explicitly doesn't get one due to flavor.

Monks are pretty much invulnerable, as they get SR and have high AC. Familliars would serve RP purposes only, but I think they were scrapped for flavor.

I'm sorry, but Monks would seriously be better off if they had a Familiar, scrapped for flavor, maybe. Maybe.

[Keld Denar]

Is there nothing the (human) subtype can't do?

Can it see why kids love cinnamon toast crunch?

You have opened my eyes to the light. I'm going to run off to Finding Players right now, find the first gestalt game I can, and apply as a human Paladin//Monk. I shall be unstoppable!

Needs more Vow of Poverty.

OTOH is the PbP scene here good? I use ENWorld but it's been... Lacking as of late. I might consider joining up here.

Its decent. Better than a lot of other places I've been like Plothook or Myth-Weavers, but thats just my opinion.

[Greenish]

At level 2: +1BAB, +1 to all saves, Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows, and an odd collection of class skills that could conceivably help a really weird build get early entry into a PrC. Other than that, I've got nothing.

Or of course, you could take a variant monk for stuff like Imp. Trip or Imp. Bull Rush.

[thompur]

Both classes are just so good they had to be restricted in some way.

The paladin gets full BAB. FULL BAB! He can roll a d20 to see if he can roll a d8 to see how much damage he will do! BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! This bad boy has a MOUNT. It's like a donkey, but better! It's very robust and will last trough all but the most epic of fights! He also gets detect evil at will. AT WILL!! Imagine the versatility. Like if he sees a pack of zombies - DETECT EVIL! He sees a tree - DETECT EVIL! This is a bottomless well of awesome! A Wizard could only dream of such power! Plus he can also heal, and basically makes Clerics useless.

The Monk? He gets a Slowfall effect! It's like a ring of Feather Falling but free and not quite as foolproof. BUT IT'S FREE! He also has spell resistance. Do you know what killed Larloch and made him a Lich? An 11th level Monk THAT'S WHAT! They are immune to magic and can basically never be hurt when falling off a tree (and everyone loves climbing trees). Monks also get awesome FREE weapons. At level 16 they become so damaging they kill everything in one hit (so they don't progress in damage after that. There is no point).

Yeah i think the multiclassing penalties are fine.

What gets me is that both classes are allowed to take TOUGHNESS as a feat, which, of course, makes them seriously over powered. It's that kind of cheese that ends up breaking games. Combine that with the Alertness feat and they almost don't need Toughness, 'cause they never get suprised! I just ban them. Too much trouble trying to boost the power of wizards and druids up to their level.