Capping tiers (3.5)

[Adamaro]

To make a game more balanced and fun for everyone I was thinking of imposing a houserule on my players regarding lvl different tier classes can reach (before they choose their class).
Simply put - wizard can down a tarrasque at lvl 14, so I was thinking Max non-epic lvl for wiz to be 14, while a fighter may go all the way to 20. Still - I am unsure if that would even-up fighter vs. wiz and also, what it would do regarding fighting monsters, so I'd like some thoughts on that. That's for tier 1, I am also thinking what similar limitation should be set for lower-class tiers?

Something like this:
max lvl achievable
t.1 14
t.2 16
t.3 18
t.4 20
t.5 20
t.6 20

But I have little experience with non-tier 1 characters, so any input is much appreciated.

[Eldan]

Probably not a bad idea, however, it runs into one problem: up to level 14, wizards will still equally dominate the game. For tiers 3 and lower, I wouldn't do that, those classes are generally balanced at all levels, and taking 20 levels of fighter straight doesn't really do much good anyway.

[faceroll]

Changing the access to classes would be simpler. A beguiler, warmage, or dread necro with the right domain through a prestige class or arcane disciple can pick up a handful of sweet spells that sort of give the character a unique flavor while still staying firmly within T3 territory. T2 classes ain't bad if you restrict abusive spells and don't allow them to cheese out on races and LA0 templates.

With that said, you could simply change the xp required to level up.

[Adamaro]

Probably not a bad idea, however, it runs into one problem: up to level 14, wizards will still equally dominate the game. For tiers 3 and lower, I wouldn't do that, those classes are generally balanced at all levels, and taking 20 levels of fighter straight doesn't really do much good anyway.

So, at which lvl will tier 1 not dominate the game? And what of other tiers? Say I do not want to ban entire tier.

@faceroll
Changing XP. Not a bad idea.

[Boci]

Or you could give the better tired classes LA.

[Runestar]

How would you handle multiclassing? Or is that disallowed in your games? Say I want to be a fighter/wiz/eldritch knight?

[Eldan]

The changing XP falls into one problem, though: as soon as say, a wizard falls one level behind, he will get more XP, since he's lower level, but faces the same encounter level as the rest of the party. So he will actually keep up.

[faceroll]

The changing XP falls into one problem, though: as soon as say, a wizard falls one level behind, he will get more XP, since he's lower level, but faces the same encounter level as the rest of the party. So he will actually keep up.

It depends on the rate of accumulation and the amount required to level up.

[Eldan]

Not really... if you make them take more XP to level, they will fall one level farther behind, and gain even more XP. And in most cases, a level 9 wizard is still much better than a level 11 fighter.

[Killer Angel]

With that said, you could simply change the xp required to level up.

@faceroll
Changing XP. Not a bad idea.

It worked that way, back in 2nd edition.

And in most cases, a level 9 wizard is still much better than a level 11 fighter.

Yeah, but the gap is wider if also the wiz. is 11.

[faceroll]

Not really... if you make them take more XP to level, they will fall one level farther behind, and gain even more XP.

Yeah really. It's fairly elementary to devise two functions such that one function always has a larger output than the other.

And in most cases, a level 9 wizard is still much better than a level 11 fighter.

But a level 7 wizard and a level 11 fighter are much closer in terms of combat power in a typical party.

[Adamaro]

Yeah really. It's fairly elementary to devise two functions such that one function always has a larger output than the other.

Hmmm. Could anyone maybe make one? The basic thing should be for a wiz to reach lvl 14 or so, when fighter is already lvl 20.

[fractal_uk]

In Pathfinder there are three different XP advancement tables (slow, medium and fast) that tell you how much XP is required for each level. The idea being that you pick an advancement speed based upon how quickly you want the game to progress.

In my latest game I split the classes into three tiers and assigned each of those tiers a corresponding XP advancement table. The upshot is that by the time the fighter hits level 20, the wizard is about half-way through level 17. Not enough to truly balance things but it does at least give the fighters something.

I see no reason why you couldn't do something similar in 3.5 but if you do you may want to give out XP for combat based upon average party level rather than giving the lower level characters more XP.

[true_shinken]

I banned spells above 6th level in my game and it's worked pretty well so far.
You can even go Wizard 20 - you just have to spend your higher slots with metamagic.

[dsmiles]

Alternatively, you could just ask your players not to break your game at higher levels. It works for me.

[Aotrs Commander]

Or you could just ban the offending game-breaking spells. After all, there is a fairly short list of really game-breaking spells. It's less effort.

[Adamaro]

Or you could just ban the offending game-breaking spells. After all, there is a fairly short list of really game-breaking spells. It's less effort.

Hmmm, any links? Or lists?

[Callista]

Yep, I agree; ban the worst spells, the most broken magic items, and the cheesiest PrCs. There are quite a lot of features to, say, the Wizard class that are NOT broken, and need to go to level 20 or they'll be useless: Skills, for example. It's just so much easier than imposing LAs for the more powerful classes.

[Aotrs Commander]

Hmmm, any links? Or lists?

Not as such no, and to some extent it depends on your playing style.

But as starter for ten:

Googling Treant's Guide to God would probably be a good place to start.

Another is to bad any spell which has an open-ended usage, which are almost always to easy to abuse (e.g Anyspell, Major Creation, Wish, Gate, Miracle, Polymorph, Shapechange etc etc); ot that kill stuff with no saves when some easily obtainable condition is met (Holy Word et al), breaks the action economy (Celerity, Time Stop et al) or were clearly designed while on some form of hard drugs (Shivering Touch).