Tanarruk - Cr2...really?

[Runestar]

Some of you will have realised that I have been advocating the tanarruk as a worthy cr2 npc recently. However, as I re-looked over its stats again in my copy of races of faerun, the more I thought it seemed a tad strong for its cr.

It has 5 outsider HD, 22hp, +4NA, sr14, fire resistance10, 14str, +8 to-hit, and a secondary bite attack. Its fluff states it dislikes wearing armour, so I shouldn't give it anything to wear, otherwise its AC could be better.

Conversely, a bugbear (cr2) has 16hp, AC17, +5 to-hit for a single attack, and crappier saves.

An ogre (cr3) has 29hp (with toughness), AC16, +8 to-hit and poorer saves as well.

Do you think the tanarruk is closer to a cr3? Or is the bugbear too weak to warrant a cr2? Or perhaps the ogre is too weak at cr3 as well?

[faceroll]

An ogre's natural reach, high base damage weapons, and predilection for wielding its weapons in both hands give them a substantial damage output, especially at a level where there aren't a whole lot of ways to boost AC.

Ogres were CR 2 in 3.0, and I remember thinking "holy crap, these things are dangerous vs. level 2 parties".

The Tanarruk looks like it should be CR 3. How much armor does it have and what is its size? Outsider HD are really solid, as they get full BAB, 8 skill points/lvl, and all good saves.

Compare it to a level 5 npc human warrior. It's better in all ways, except maybe equipment and HP.

[dsmiles]

They're medium-sized, but, according to fluff, disdain armor. I'm inclined to go CR2, and say the bugbear is a "weak" CR2.

[Runestar]

Tanarruk is medium sized. I just noticed it has only 20-ft movement, so that is to its disadvantage. It has an AC of 15, stemming from +4NA and 12dex. I suppose you could give it a chain shirt to crank its AC up to 19...

It typically wields a battleaxe for 1d8+3. So on a full attack, it attacks for +8/1d8+3 and +2/1d6+1. Or replace with a greatsword for 2d6+3.

Also having 5 HD and being outsider, it is immune to spells like sleep, and slightly more resilient to will-save effects such as glitterdust. Its will save is +3 due to a wis penalty. Sr may also give a mage fits.

Seems more like cr2.5, or maybe a really well rounded/designed cr2? In the very least, I feel it is stronger than a bugbear at any rate.

[Mastikator]

Bugbears are supposed to use brilliant tactics, they'd probably create circumstances where they get elevation bonus, attack in greater numbers, or are unreachable in melee and attack with bows while getting cover from darkness or some obstacle. They're only as weak as the DM :P

[Dracons]

Well it is outsider. Of course it's going to have higher attack bonus and saves, since they get BA equal to HD, and saves are all good, (so the saves of a fifth level monk) as compared to bugbears and such.

But, that CR 2, is going against 4 second level characters. It's going to go down in one round, maybe two, just like any other CR 2.

It's well rounded, but not overpowered.

[Eldariel]

Well it is outsider. Of course it's going to have higher attack bonus and saves, since they get BA equal to HD, and saves are all good, (so the saves of a fifth level monk) as compared to bugbears and such.

But, that CR 2, is going against 4 second level characters. It's going to go down in one round, maybe two, just like any other CR 2.

It's well rounded, but not overpowered.

But can a level 1 party of 4 take on two of them with only one-two PC casualties?

[Flickerdart]

But can a level 1 party of 4 take on two of them with only one-two PC casualties?

As long as they're not dumb about it? Yeah. It can't run very fast and its AC is junk, so everyone just picks up a bow and scatters. It'll take a little while, but I don't see them lasting more than three, four rounds.

[Dracons]

But can a level 1 party of 4 take on two of them with only one-two PC casualties?

Yep. Witness myself, but with less casualties (None in my case).

If players decide to run up to them, and start swinging a dagger? Yeah, might be a little harder.


Players pick them from a distance, or the raging barbarian trips them followed by the rogue sneak attacking the prone one while flaking them, the wizard already putting a grease spell or two under another to allow the rogue to go sneak happy, a ray of enfeeblment to destroy their strength, the cleric already blessed the party and baned them? Easy to crush 4 of them with minimal pain.

If the party however, feels the best tactic would be the wizard to charge with a dagger or something? Then yeah, they'll be destroyed. Party sticks to their strengths? They'll crush them.

[Fouredged Sword]

4 cr 2's are what, cr 6. So 4 cr 2 monsters should be a serious threat to a set of 4 level 2 characters, but not imposible. Sounds about right. 4 cr's higher than the party is the relm for a well optimised party.