PHB-Only Monk Build?

[RndmNumGen]

I'm starting to get back into D&D, and found that one of my friends was hosting a basic newbie-friendly campaign. While II don't have a lot of experience with D&D, I do have played several games while most of the other players have never played before. In interest of not stealing the spotlight, I decided to play a low-tier class. When I rolled my stats, I got 17, 16, 15, 11, 11, 9; quite a few high rolls. I decided to take this opportunity to play Monk, something I have always wanted to do but been intimidated by the MAD Monks have.

However, I don't really know much about how monk plays. I was thinking about doing 17 STR, 16 WIS and 15 DEX, then going into the two-weapon fighting tree and getting as many accuracy enchancements as possible to make great use out of Furry of Blows. I'm not really sure how effective this would be in practice though, since that would get me two more attacks per round than a two-weapon fighting fighter or ranger, but with lower BAB. Anyone have any suggestions for improving the efficiency of this build?

Main restrictions on the game is PHB only(no DMG or MM) and no evil characters(I'm planning on being a LG follower of St. Cuthbert).

[Myth]

{{scrubbed}}

[The_JJ]

{{scrubbed}}

Premature methinks. He's asking for help, not debating its worth. That said, I play clerics so, I can't help you.

[dsmiles]

I'm not sure how that interaction would play out. I've never done a TWF monk build, but I would think that for the 'bonus feats', Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip would make better choices than Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows and Improved Disarm.

If it's any consolation, I'm currently playing a Monk/Stone Dragon Warblade/Warhulk (quintessential brawler, IMO).

[Myth]

Considering OP said he is not sure how this would play out I figured it's a matter of time before it was pointed out that in fact, it won't play well at all. Monks plain suck.

OP if you have TOB the go to responce of GitP is "roll an Unarmed Swordsage" instead. Or a Monk 2/PsyWar x. Or anything else suggested in the topic which i linked and which is right above this one right now on the boards.

If all else fails, searching for Monk will yield about 639632003 threads.

[dsmiles]

Considering OP said he is not sure how this would play out I figured it's a matter of time before it was pointed out that in fact, it won't play well at all. Monks plain suck.

OP if you have TOB the go to responce of GitP is "roll an Unarmed Swordsage" instead. Or a Monk 2/PsyWar x. Or anything else suggested in the topic which i linked and which is right above this one right now on the boards.

If all else fails, searching for Monk will yield about 639632003 threads.

However, he pointed out that the PHB1 is the only player resource allowed. So, no TOB.

[The_JJ]

Considering OP said he is not sure how this would play out I figured it's a matter of time before it was pointed out that in fact, it won't play well at all. Monks plain suck.

OP if you have TOB the go to responce of GitP is "roll an Unarmed Swordsage" instead. Or a Monk 2/PsyWar x. Or anything else suggested in the topic which i linked and which is right above this one right now on the boards.

If all else fails, searching for Monk will yield about 639632003 threads.

*points at title* *points at quote: "I decided to play a lower tier class"* *points at at quote: "Main restrictions on the game is PHB only"*

*shrugs*

Grapple seems like a good idea to me, but don't quote me on that at all.

I mean, theoretically blahblahblah Freedom of Movement blah but for the game it sounds like you're going to play being able to pin down one enemy while your pals slap around the other sounds like a good mix of utility/non-spotlight stealing.

[JaronK]

Stunning Fist and Improved Trip are obvious choices, so go with that. If you're doing TWF, you REALLY need to get your damage up, which is going to be hard with just the PHB (Improved Natural Attack is in Monster Manual). Consider playing a Half Orc just to get your damage up.

JaronK

[olthar]

Considering OP said he is not sure how this would play out I figured it's a matter of time before it was pointed out that in fact, it won't play well at all. Monks plain suck.

OP if you have TOB the go to responce of GitP is "roll an Unarmed Swordsage" instead. Or a Monk 2/PsyWar x. Or anything else suggested in the topic which i linked and which is right above this one right now on the boards.

If all else fails, searching for Monk will yield about 639632003 threads.

preface: I don't want to threadjack.
I don't understand the general monk animosity that people in this community have. It is a viable class that some people would like to play for roleplaying purposes. As Dungeons and Dragons is a roleplaying game, it makes sense that people will ask questions about it. I've seen questions about other classes answered without half of the posts being exasperated statements about how dare people ask about monks.

The OP had a specific question: Given that I (the op) want to play a monk, and that I have the following restrictions (PHB Only) what is the best way to build this character?

If you don't want to answer that question, then don't respond. Consequently, I don't have an answer either. The only monk I've played was in a weird hybrid 1st/2nd ed game so it was completely different than a 3.5 monk. I'm just interested in seeing what the answer would be because my character in my main game will be dying soon (sometimes you know ahead of time) and I'm trying to think up something interesting to roleplay for my next one.

[Myth]

Well the first rule of Grappling is be Large or even bigger if you can. The second rule of Grappling is have full BAB. The Monk fails at both.

A tripper build will fail even harder, especially since the Horizon Tripper is Core only.

Are you using PHB or SRD? Because the SRD has some delicious UA and XPH. You want melee, I'd say go for (well for Druid but I digress) a Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian. SRD only and infinitely better at hitting stuff then a lowly Monk. Cuz, you know, when you can't grapple as a real threat (not that grappling is actually a threat anyway), you are not even a decent tripper and your flurry of misses makes you suck at fighting you might as well abandon hope.

edit: Fine then if you insist on Monk, go play a Monk 20. All the feats are in the PHB, there is not hing we can actually do to help you optimize (at least I can't). As far as how it will play, I think i made my position clear.

[Amphetryon]

Big problem #1: You're stuck with an 11 CON or less unless you take a race with a CON bonus, which in many cases eats into your DEX, or your Fast Movement, or both. You'll be fragile for a melee class, especially if you're grappling.

Big problem #2: With your medium BAB, TWF will statistically increase the odds that your Flurry of Blows will turn into the often-cited Flurry of Misses unless you have ways to buff yourself significantly before every combat or bother the party's casters to do it for you. Even if they do, they'll be buffing you instead of either someone with a full BAB or themselves, for what will still be a statistically smaller return on their spells' investment. There are folks on the boards who advocate using items and Use Magic Device yourself to address these problems; that's a difficult task at best with cross-class skills and no CHA bonus.

If you're only dipping Monk for a couple levels, the above problems are minor. The further in Monk you go, the more you're likely to see the above issues arise.

[dsmiles]

I'm just interested in seeing what the answer would be because my character in my main game will be dying soon (sometimes you know ahead of time) and I'm trying to think up something interesting to roleplay for my next one.

If it's any consolation, I'm currently playing a Monk/Stone Dragon Warblade/Warhulk (quintessential brawler, IMO).

If you don't mind sucking up the penalties for being Large, I'm having fun with this one. (Monastic Training, FTW!)

[Starbuck_II]

When I rolled my stats, I got 17, 16, 15, 11, 11, 9; quite a few high rolls. I decided to take this opportunity to play Monk, something I have always wanted to do but been intimidated by the MAD Monks have.

However, I don't really know much about how monk plays. I was thinking about doing 17 STR, 16 WIS and 15 DEX, then going into the two-weapon fighting tree and getting as many accuracy enchancements as possible to make great use out of Furry of Blows. I'm not really sure how effective this would be in practice though, since that would get me two more attacks per round than a two-weapon fighting fighter or ranger, but with lower BAB. Anyone have any suggestions for improving the efficiency of this build?

Main restrictions on the game is PHB only(no DMG or MM) and no evil characters(I'm planning on being a LG follower of St. Cuthbert).

TWFING Monks are good for number of attacks but remember both Flurry and TWFing have a -2 penalty (they stack) meaning you won't hit as often for each individual attack.

I say Monk till level 2-6 (minimum 2, max 9) than go rest of way Cleric.
Cleric buffs help you a lot. Divine power if possible will fix BAB issue.

Even one level of Cleric + a scroll will help.

[Eldariel]

You could take two levels in Monk and then go Fighter (or Barbarian or Ranger or all of the above). That'd at least net you full BAB and some bonuses on hitting.

'cause even if you max out on Strength, you'll have serious issues hitting things. TWF is -2, Flurry has its own penalties, and you're Medium BAB. And you have no class-based To Hit bonuses like Barb (Rage) or Fighter (WF-lane, however anemic it is). Note that you're only virtually two attacks ahead of others; because of your lower BAB, you'll miss out on the last iterative for almost all levels comparatively and thus end up only 1 attack ahead (in exchange for doing all your full BAB attacks at ~-3 to -5 compared to full BAB).

[RndmNumGen]

Yeah, I know monks are sub-optimal. As the game is composed of new players and most are playing low-tier classes as well(We have a Human Paladin, Dwarf Fighter, Halfling Rogue, and the single high-tier class, an Elf Cleric), the DM is likely to give us easier challenges since our power level is relatively low. That is why I decided to play Monk, I thought it would be a good chance to try out a class that is often ignored. That said, I would still like a good idea of where I'm going with this build. I've never played monk before, so I don't know how their abilities really synergize.

I'm not sure how that interaction would play out. I've never done a TWF monk build, but I would think that for the 'bonus feats', Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip would make better choices than Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows and Improved Disarm.

Hmm... Okay. I can see where Stunning Fist will come in useful, certainly. Yeah, I might focus on that.

If all else fails, searching for Monk will yield about 639632003 threads.

Most of which are why monks don't compare to clerics, swordsages and druids, and not focusing on the abilities of the monk class itself.

Consider playing a Half Orc just to get your damage up.

Half-Orc, huh? Hmm... I was planning on going human for the extra feat, but that might be worth considering.

Are you using PHB or SRD?

PHB.

I say Monk till level 2-6 (minimum 2, max 9) than go rest of way Cleric.
Cleric buffs help you a lot. Divine power if possible will fix BAB issue.

Even one level of Cleric + a scroll will help.

Alright. Multiclassing is allowed, so I could dip into other classes to help round out some of Monk's weaknesses. We do already have a cleric though, so I don't really want to focus on that.

EDIT:

You could take two levels in Monk and then go Fighter (or Barbarian or Ranger or all of the above). That'd at least net you full BAB and some bonuses on hitting.

Don't Monk and Barbarian conflict though due to requiring Lawful and Nonlawful alignments, respectively? I could certainly see taking levels in Fighter or Ranger though.

Hmm... If I take some ranger levels early on, I get the two-weapon fighting feats for free, right? That could be useful...

[Emmerask]

Main restrictions on the game is PHB only(no DMG or MM) and no evil characters(I'm planning on being a LG follower of St. Cuthbert).

How about multiclassing anyway? ^^
Fact is that the later levels of monk don´t give you all that much
so:

Monk 9/cleric 7/ Barbarian 4

Saint Cuthbert cleric with strength domain and one other ^^ so you get enlarge person and 7th level for divine power.

It won´t be super powerful but decent enough I think.

Don't Monk and Barbarian conflict though due to requiring Lawful and Nonlawful alignments, respectively?

If you take monk first an then become none lawful you retain all the monks abilities but you can never take more levels in monk
So monk then barbarian is valid

[The Shadowmind]

If you want the two-handed fighter route I say go Monk 2/Barbarian 2/ Ranger 16.
You have to start out LG, then go CG. You are still an unarmored guy that runs fast, and fights with two weapons(the ranger levels save spending the feats on the twf,) You'll have a BaB only 1 lower than full BaB. You can rage 1/day (sadly extra rage is non PHB). You would get an animal companion of a 8th level druid.

[Eldariel]

Don't Monk and Barbarian conflict though due to requiring Lawful and Nonlawful alignments, respectively? I could certainly see taking levels in Fighter or Ranger though.

Hmm... If I take some ranger levels early on, I get the two-weapon fighting feats for free, right? That could be useful...

Yes, but you don't lose Monk-abilities for becoming non-Lawful anyways. You could just as easily be Neutral Good and play Monk 2/Barb ->. For many kinds of characters that could make perfect sense anyways; abandoning the rigid way of a Monk to focus on perfecting your fighting. And yes, Ranger = free TWF.

[Gavinfoxx]

Didn't someone make a viable PHB/DMG ONLY (for prestige classes) build without Monk, that simulated every single feature of a Monk, but was actually useful at combat? I remember assassin, fighter, maybe blackguard?

[grarrrg]

I got 17, 16, 15, 11, 11, 9; quite a few high rolls. I decided to take this opportunity to play Monk

First, for race Humans are always good for the Bonus Feat and Skills.
Dwarf offers +Con with effectively no penalty and Darkvision. Has a 20ft. speed that is easily negated at Monk3
Elf can 'stat trade' and effectively turn your 17 16 15 11 (+3,3,2,0), into a 'slightly' better 17 16 13 13 (+3,3,1,1), or 17 15 14 13 (+3,2,2,1), allowing Str, Dex, Con, AND Wis to all have a bonus.

I'd vote down the "two-weapon+Flurry" idea. Too many to-hit penalties.

[Coidzor]

However, he pointed out that the PHB1 is the only player resource allowed. So, no TOB.

Or Tashalatora. :/

Hmm. TWF+Power Attack with an enchanted Quarterstaff wielded with both hands while unarmed striking with any body part that's not a fist you feel like.

That's all I can think of for feats.

If you could get UA material that'd've been nice, but no go there for alternate feat sources...hmm.

[Telonius]

Okay, PHB only. I'd recommend going Quarterstaff fighting. Focus on the Strength. Power Attack and Improved Initiative are priorities. Beg, plead, blackmail, or bribe your DM into letting you take Improved Natural Attack (found in the Monster Manual 1). Weapon Focus (unarmed). Rapid Reload for Shuriken if you feel like it. Spring Attack is a trap. I would strongly advise against the TWF tree. Improved Disarm can be situationally useful, if the DM isn't careful about the sorts of weapons your enemies have (i.e. he throws lots of sword and board against you). But as pointed out the deck is stacked against you unless you're pretty sure the enemy has a much lower strength and/or size.

Max out Tumble so you can be Flanking Buddy with the Rogue. Talk to the Rogue to figure out which skills he'll be focusing on, and shore up the scouting.

You'll want to pay close attention to your wealth and magic items. You'd think Monk is less wealth-dependent than other characters, but the opposite is true. Load up on utility and mundane stuff (grappling hook, tanglefoot bag, lots of rope) when you can. Remember that lots of minor magic items to add up to larger bonuses than one big item.

[Telonius]

Didn't someone make a viable PHB/DMG ONLY (for prestige classes) build without Monk, that simulated every single feature of a Monk, but was actually useful at combat? I remember assassin, fighter, maybe blackguard?

::raises hand::

Though apparently the forum has eaten it. It was more of an illustrative argument than an actual build. Basically you take a Fighter and use feats to replicate most of the Monk's abilities. Argument being that if Fighter is practically as good at being a "monk" as the Monk class is, the Monk class probably wasn't very well designed.

[Greenish]

Rapid Reload for Shuriken if you feel like it.

Uh, what? Even if you meant Quick Draw, that wouldn't make drawing shuriken happen any quicker (since it's a free action to begin with).

[Eldariel]

Honestly, I'd just make a Horizon Walker if I wanted to avoid good classes while staying in Core. Between Dimension Door, some nice static bonuses, Tremorsense and so on, it's definitely a somewhat competent character and can be quite Monky (given Monk has Dimension Door and perception abilities and such too). Hell, if you get decent Wisdom, you could fit actual Monk-levels in and go unarmored.

[Telonius]

Uh, what? Even if you meant Quick Draw, that wouldn't make drawing shuriken happen any quicker (since it's a free action to begin with).

Huh, could've sworn it was the other way round... was that a 3.0 change? (Though it's also quite possible I'm losing my mind - that tends to happen in proximity to Monk threads).

[Emmerask]

Honestly, I'd just make a Horizon Walker if I wanted to avoid good classes while staying in Core. Between Dimension Door, some nice static bonuses, Tremorsense and so on, it's definitely a somewhat competent character and can be quite Monky (given Monk has Dimension Door and perception abilities and such too). Hell, if you get decent Wisdom, you could fit actual Monk-levels in and go unarmored.

Its phb only not core only

[Eldariel]

Its phb only not core only

Well, I guess that's that then; I'm seriously running low on excuses to suggest a non-caster.

[Amphetryon]

Huh, could've sworn it was the other way round... was that a 3.0 change? (Though it's also quite possible I'm losing my mind - that tends to happen in proximity to Monk threads).

IIRC, they were classified as ammunition in 3.0. This had hilarious consequences.

[RndmNumGen]

Okay, PHB only. I'd recommend going Quarterstaff fighting. Focus on the Strength. Power Attack and Improved Initiative are priorities. Beg, plead, blackmail, or bribe your DM into letting you take Improved Natural Attack (found in the Monster Manual 1). Weapon Focus (unarmed). Rapid Reload for Shuriken if you feel like it. Spring Attack is a trap. I would strongly advise against the TWF tree. Improved Disarm can be situationally useful, if the DM isn't careful about the sorts of weapons your enemies have (i.e. he throws lots of sword and board against you). But as pointed out the deck is stacked against you unless you're pretty sure the enemy has a much lower strength and/or size.

Max out Tumble so you can be Flanking Buddy with the Rogue. Talk to the Rogue to figure out which skills he'll be focusing on, and shore up the scouting.

You'll want to pay close attention to your wealth and magic items. You'd think Monk is less wealth-dependent than other characters, but the opposite is true. Load up on utility and mundane stuff (grappling hook, tanglefoot bag, lots of rope) when you can. Remember that lots of minor magic items to add up to larger bonuses than one big item.

Hmm... Improved Natural Attack would only work with unarmed strikes, yes? Would I want Weapon Focus in both Quaterstaff and Unarmed, then?

Oh, I should probably mention the DM is giving us double stat increases when we level(so we get +1 to two different stats instead of +1 in just 1 stat). That also helps a bit with the MAD.