Monks/Fighters/Wizards/ToB/3.5v4e/3.5vPF Why the hate?

[Drothmal]

I hope the title says it all (literally)

I've seen at least one if not more of each of this threads coming up every week, with the OP asking the question (sometimes with the best of intentions) followed by 6-8 pages of discussion and then the moderator locking the thread due to people forgetting themselves in the heat of the argument. Most of the discussions could be avoided if the OP had looked up previous discussions of the topic

I want to compile a list of threads that could be pointed to someone asking any of the most troublesome questions, so this could be referenced earlier on and pointless discussions could be kept to a minimum.
Here are the questions that, at least to me, have caused the most trouble, followed by a couple threads about it (which I compiled in 5-10mins of browsing for all these topics). Feel free to add more questions and to suggest links. I’ll try to edit this post so it includes a fair amount of responses (since there is no shortage of them) to each question

Edit: If you are reading this and want to check out some of the references, make sure not to Necro dead posts!!!!


Edit 2: This is an AMAZING set of lyrics written by Talya that complete captures the spirit of this thread

Direct link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=35

Spoiler

Show

To the tune of "we didn't start the fire" by Billy Joel

Melee combat, T.O.B.
3rd, Three Point Five, or Four-E
Wizards, Monks or Sorcerers
CoDzilla versus Rangers

Jarlaxle's wide brimmed hat
Monkey Grip don't work like that
D&D or Exalted?
Working as intended?

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Divination - Can we scry?
Evocation sucks, you'll die
Enchantment is hard to use
Illusion is easily abused

Will this make my Pally fall?
Can I drop an Iron Wall?
This game is to much like WoW
Damage calc from falling cows

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Exalted's too anime
Dragonbloods are often gay
Small Daiklaives are epic fail
Hot Bikini Chainmail!

Should he run DMPCs?
Leadership is so O.P.
My DM makes me want to hurl
Physics slaughters cat-girls.

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

Faerun, Greyhawk, Eberron
Star Wars Saga will live on
Creation, or Shadowrun
Rokugan, maybe Dark Sun

Can I do this under RAW?
Good and Evil, Chaos - Law
Rabid, nasty version wars!
I can't take it anymore!

We didn't cast the [Fire].
But it's constantly burning
As the rounds are turning.
We didn't cast the [Fire].
No we didn't light her
Cause we play a fighter

- Tier1: Broken or Amazing?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...highlight=DMPC (Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...highlight=DMPC (Tier 1`s in your game, do they go boom?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ght=Leadership (What would it take to get a top-tier melee?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123832 (What Makes Classes Broken?)

-Wizards: Broken, Super-broken or my one true love class

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171994 (what if we were all wizards)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112811 (What Makes Classes Broken?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111843 (Punch Out The Wizard!)

- Monks: Awesome or Suck?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174895 (Monk, why does it suck?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48134 (Best PvP Class In Your Opinion)

- Fighters: Powerless or just right?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170630 (Out-fight the fighter?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153628 (Monks, Paladins, and Fighters, oh my!)

- ToB: Broken? Anime-like? Can melee have nice things too?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171200 (Tome of Battle: Why some hate?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174916 (What are your opinions on ToB?)

- 3.5 vs 4e
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...hlight=edition (Thinking About Switching Back to 3.5...)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...hlight=edition (The D&D 4e thread: because we don't appear to have one)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...hlight=edition (The D&D 4e and Essentials Thread: for people who have good things to say)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...hlight=edition (4e.... Thoughts?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...hlight=edition (My thoughts on 4e...THIS IS NOT HOW IT LOOKS LIKE!)
- 3.5 vs pathfinder
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...93#post7609693 (The 3.5/Pathfinder Handbook by Saph)

- Are DMPCs a good idea?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...highlight=DMPC (Dealing with the Stereotypical Mary Sue)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...highlight=DMPC (NPCs, DMPCs, and DM's former characters oh my!)

- Truenaming
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175481 (what is this 'truenaming' and why does it apparently suck so bad?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176034 (what if we were all Truenamers)


- Homebrew

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175913 (How much attention do you pay to others' homebrew material?)

- Alignment

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175858 (Evil - what is and what isn't)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173592 (Paladins "punish those that harm or threaten innocents", but what counts?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173743 (Logic & Alignment statements)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168731 (Evil as a mirror of Good)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168818 (Chaos as self-centred, Law as selfless)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161040 (How evil does somebody need to be in D&D, to have an Evil alignment?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168502 (What alignment is somebody who has only 1 of the 2 "necessary" Good traits?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150347 (Are NPCs always aware of their own alignment?)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157367 (Can "acts of neutrality" change a (Good or Evil) character to Neutral?)

[Kurald Galain]

Obligatory link.

Don't forget:

• Why do paladins fall?
• Mystic Theurge: decent or powerless?
• Tiers: helpful or game breaking?
• Should you use your DM influence to seduce your players?
• 3.5 vs 3.0
• 3.0 vs 2.0
• 4.0 vs 4.4
• Rituals: useful or useless?
• Is D&D a MMORPG?
• FATAL

[Urpriest]

Noo! If you complete your sinister project, what shall we have to talk about??

[Drothmal]

Obligatory link.

Don't forget:

• Why do paladins fall?
• Mystic Theurge: decent or powerless?
• Tiers: helpful or game breaking?
• Should you use your DM influence to seduce your players?
• 3.5 vs 3.0
• 3.0 vs 2.0
• 4.0 vs 4.4
• Rituals: useful or useless?
• Is D&D a MMORPG?
• FATAL

All of those are great! I just wanted to start with some and see if people could link previous threads to this one to make a complete reference

Noo! If you complete your sinister project, what shall we have to talk about??

Kittens, maybe? I mean, Mwahahaha (evil Laugh) You can't stop me!!!!

[Frosty]

When the heck are the fourth bullet and the last bullet regular topics? We talk about FATAL?

[OracleofWuffing]

When the heck are the fourth bullet and the last bullet regular topics? We talk about FATAL?

The first rule about FATAL is never to talk about FATAL!

Don't forget:

• 3.5 vs 3.0
• 3.0 vs 2.0
• 4.0 vs 4.4

While you're at it, don't forget "Why do some people call D&D 4e Essentials 4.5, 4.4, 4.25, 4.14159265, and so on?"

[Keld Denar]

Sticky please! One reference thread for the questions and debates that come up every week...

Then we all just put it in our sigs, and when someone asks a question, you just go:

VV See sig!
V

[Drothmal]

Sticky please! One reference thread for the questions and debates that come up every week...

Then we all just put it in our sigs, and when someone asks a question, you just go:

VV See sig!
V

Yes! That is the idea! I would appreciate if anyone want to volunteer any other links to the above questions.

If you want to add a question to the list, I'm more than game, but please give at least one link to a relevant thread

Thanks!

[Coidzor]

• 3.5 vs 3.0
• 3.0 vs 2.0

Aww, I'm sad now. I missed out on those.

[The Oakenshield]

I'm kind of proud my first GitP thread is in that list, for some reason...

[Signmaker]

I'm kind of proud my first GitP thread is in that list, for some reason...

I'm kind of proud I posted in the Great Ice Cream Debate.

[tyckspoon]

Aww, I'm sad now. I missed out on those.

I was gonna say "Missed out? What? Those are still regular threads!" But then I remembered that they're mostly "3.5 vs. 2.0/you mean OD&D/No, I think it's AD&D isn't it?" these days.

[Logalmier]

Here's a link for a monk debate. It happens to be the one in Sir Giacamos sig.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48134

I'll list more later once I get my links together.

Obligatory link.

Don't forget:

• Why do paladins fall?
• Mystic Theurge: decent or powerless?
• Tiers: helpful or game breaking?
• Should you use your DM influence to seduce your players?
• 3.5 vs 3.0
• 3.0 vs 2.0
• 4.0 vs 4.4
• Rituals: useful or useless?
• Is D&D a MMORPG?
• FATAL

DON'T FORGET ALIGNMENT WARS!!!!

[Coidzor]

I was gonna say "Missed out? What? Those are still regular threads!" But then I remembered that they're mostly "3.5 vs. 2.0/you mean OD&D/No, I think it's AD&D isn't it?" these days.

Apparently I'm just really unobservant then. x.x

[Thurbane]

I know this thread has the best of intentions, but unfortunately nothing is ever going to stop the tide of Monks/Fighters/ToB threads cropping up. (The edition vs. edition ones seem to have slowed to a trickle...).

Newer members (and some not so new) often create threads without searching.

[tcrudisi]

Newer members (and some not so new) often create threads without searching.

Clearly you are wrong. The newer members come here, search the forums, and resurrect old threads because they search. I find it is the older members that re-create the threads since their preferred thread has been locked.

There, now we can add "New members vs. old members" to the original post.

I really hope that everyone could tell that I was joking.

[Thurbane]

Clearly you are wrong. The newer members come here, search the forums, and resurrect old threads because they search. I find it is the older members that re-create the threads since their preferred thread has been locked.

There, now we can add "New members vs. old members" to the original post.

I really hope that everyone could tell that I was joking.

True, there is a fair bit of thread necro involved as well.

I used to be a modertaor at a pretty large game studio official forum, and I've often pondered the virtues of thread necro vs. spamming the same topic over and over. At that particular forum, we tended towards preferring (some) thread necro (when people had something relevant to add, and preferrably ask permission first) to the same topic cropping up over and over again.

Different strokes for different folks.

[ffone]

I hope the title says it all

I've seen at least one if not more of each of this threads coming up every week, with the OP asking the question (sometimes with the best of intentions) followed by 6-8 pages of discussion and then the moderator locking the thread due to people forgetting themselves in the heat of the argument. Most of the discussions could be avoided if the OP had looked up previous discussions of the topic

The forum 'thread Necromancy' rules basically guarantee the Topic-Go-Round.

[Frosty]

Which in turn means post count++ for all.

[Kurald Galain]

* 3.5 vs 3.0
* 3.0 vs 2.0

Aww, I'm sad now. I missed out on those.

That's easy: 3.0 is precisely a 50% improvement over 2.0, and 3.5 is 17% better than 3.0. Math doesn't lie!

[Leon]

Monks/Fighters/Wizards/ToB/3.5v4e/3.5vPF Why the hate?

Because people need something to look down on occasion and these things seem to be the most common targets.

[Myth]

Make sure to add:

The tier system.
The X handbook (when asking for prestige classes especially) + LogicNinja's Batman Guide + Treantmonk's Playing God guide
Incantatrix, why so broken? - admittedly i searched around before asking on my first post ever, and had not found information that answered all my questions.

The first modslap i got was for necroing an old thread where someone had used Perform: Sarcasm for Monk and i rolled 1 on the Detect Sarcasm check. Since I continue being slapped around by the Mods (which is still better then being banhammered) I welcome a sticky topic we can just >>>> to whenever it's Monkday or Theurgesday.

[grimbold]

also add to the hate list
half-elves
this does not come up often but when they do come up they get mocked.

good idea though

[Kaeso]

Obligatory link.

Don't forget:

• Why do paladins fall?
• Mystic Theurge: decent or powerless?
• Tiers: helpful or game breaking?
  
• Should you use your DM influence to seduce your players?
• 3.5 vs 3.0
• 3.0 vs 2.0
• 4.0 vs 4.4
• Rituals: useful or useless?
• Is D&D a MMORPG?
• FATAL

Why would you do that?!

[Koury]

Why would you do that?!

Wait, you're not supposed to do that?

Sorry Keld, I guess I won't bring all those candles and wine over any more.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Y'know what might me more amusing - a meta-thread.

Each week, make a new post that tracks the Flame Bait topics for that week. This will help honest folks quickly understand "the hate" for a given topic and put trolls on notice that We Saw What They Did There.

Plus, it'd be an amusing record! I, for one, would love for there to see a compilation of Trolley Problem Alignment Threads

Heck, we could even give out awards! "Most Original No Win Scenario for a Paladin;" "Weakest Justification for Monks Being Good;" "Best Schrodinger's Fighter." It'd be a hoot and a half!

[dsmiles]

Y'know what might me more amusing - a meta-thread.

Each week, make a new post that tracks the Flame Bait topics for that week. This will help honest folks quickly understand "the hate" for a given topic and put trolls on notice that We Saw What They Did There.

Plus, it'd be an amusing record! I, for one, would love for there to see a compilation of Trolley Problem Alignment Threads

Heck, we could even give out awards! "Most Original No Win Scenario for a Paladin;" "Weakest Justification for Monks Being Good;" "Best Schrodinger's Fighter." It'd be a hoot and a half!

Meta-thread. HAH! We could call the awards "The Trollies!" HAHHAA!!DO YOU EVEN KNOW HOW MUCH COKE BURNS WHEN IT COMES OUT YOUR NOSE?!?!?!?

[Greenish]

Heck, we could even give out awards! "Most Original No Win Scenario for a Paladin;" "Weakest Justification for Monks Being Good;" "Best Schrodinger's Fighter." It'd be a hoot and a half!

"Most mentions of Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike on a single page."

[Drothmal]

While you're at it, don't forget "Why do some people call D&D 4e Essentials 4.5, 4.4, 4.25, 4.14159265, and so on?"

I am not very familiar with 4e (by that I do not mean I find it any better or worse than any other system, just that I don't have the books and have never played it), so I have not read the threads about that topic in particular. If you would like to link some appropriate threads, I would love to include it

Here's a link for a monk debate. It happens to be the one in Sir Giacamos sig.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48134

I'll list more later once I get my links together.

DON'T FORGET ALIGNMENT WARS!!!!

Thanks! I added it to the list
I thought of including Alignment, but due to the complexity of the issue (crunch vs fluff, mechanics vs RP, personal philosophy vs dictionary definitions), I didn't know if that would not turn this thread into a discussion, which it exactly what I wanted to avoid.

That being said, if people want to volunteer links, I would certainly consider adding them to the list

I know this thread has the best of intentions, but unfortunately nothing is ever going to stop the tide of Monks/Fighters/ToB threads cropping up. (The edition vs. edition ones seem to have slowed to a trickle...).

Newer members (and some not so new) often create threads without searching.

I'm glad that it's noticeable that I'm doing this out of good will (I was worried that people thought I was just trying to create a megaargument including all possible topics)

I know it's not gonna stop the discussion, but I thought I should try to help out those people out there that actually are asking these questions out of lack of experience instead of trying to prove how smart they are.

My ideal outcome out of this thread would be that, from time to time, someone starts one of the weekly threads and it's redirected here, where their question is answered and they subsequently post in their own new thread. "Oh! I didn't know there was so much discussion about this! I'll start reading right away! I'll post again if I have further questions"

If there is a 20% reduction in problematic posts, I would consider this thread a HUGE success

The forum 'thread Necromancy' rules basically guarantee the Topic-Go-Round.

Because people need something to look down on occasion and these things seem to be the most common targets.

Like I said, I know it will pop up again, I'm just hoping to provide a tool for those that need some help with their searching

That's easy: 3.0 is precisely a 50% improvement over 2.0, and 3.5 is 17% better than 3.0. Math doesn't lie!

Brilliant! You sir, are a Mathematician to recon with.

My riposte: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php...&id=2039#comic

Make sure to add:

The tier system.
The X handbook (when asking for prestige classes especially) + LogicNinja's Batman Guide + Treantmonk's Playing God guide
Incantatrix, why so broken? - admittedly i searched around before asking on my first post ever, and had not found information that answered all my questions.

I would certainly appreciate a link to the Incantatrix discussion, even though I have not see one of those lately (please do not take that to be an invitation or a challenge)

I welcome a sticky topic we can just >>>> to whenever it's Monkday or Theurgesday.

Thanks!

also add to the hate list
half-elves
this does not come up often but when they do come up they get mocked.

good idea though

I have not seen that many half-elf wars. I was trying to stick to the most popular topics (after all, I don't wanna catalog ALL the forums )

Wait, you're not supposed to do that?

Sorry Keld, I guess I won't bring all those candles and wine over any more.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh
............
............

[Starbuck_II]

When the heck are the fourth bullet and the last bullet regular topics? We talk about FATAL?

No, FATAL talks about you. Which version are we referring to?
1) Fantasy Adventure To Adult Lechery
2) From Another Time; Another Land

I hear there are at least two versions.

Here is a postive review I found:
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_5754.html