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    Default Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    I know they have the same fricken' spells (minus a few Sorcerer-Exclusives), but in an optimizer's POV, which is better?
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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    In a very general sense, Wizards are better due to earlier spell access and unlimited spells known. (Also, Int is a better casting stat than Cha.)

    But there's a lot of other factors to consider: how easily the wizard can get new spells in your DM's campaign, whether spellbook-screw is a possibility, what sources/PrCs are available etc.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2010-11-11 at 12:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    I'm an optimizer, and I prefer the sorcerer for its spontaneous casting ability. I hate having to prepare spells.

    From a pure optimization standpoint, the wizard is better.

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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokuhara View Post
    I know they have the same fricken' spells (minus a few Sorcerer-Exclusives), but in an optimizer's POV, which is better?
    Wizard is generally better, focused specialists will still know more spells than the sorcerer and cast more per/day on average, while still retaining the faster progression.
    BEEP.

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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Wizard has better casting stat (int governs knowledge skills and skillpoints, cha only a few skills), easier time with metamagic, more freedom to pick situational spells, easier time qualifying for many of the best PrCs, better ACFs, faster spell level acquisition and a bunch of free feats. A focused specialist can match sorcerers in spellslots, with more higher level spells to toss around.

    Sorcerer has less paperwork, and a few spells unique to them. Also, dragon shenanigans.

    [Edit]: Which one is better depends on what you're trying to achieve. Wizard is stronger, though.
    Last edited by Greenish; 2010-11-11 at 12:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Optimizers here tend to favor the wizard heavily, but I dunno. Being 1/2 a spell level behind hurts, but usually the lower level spells are also quite good unless you're playing a blaster. In theory the wizard could have any spell prepared and in theory "know" more and that's why people say they'll come out on top. But in practice the sorcerer is more versatile because he has X spells to choose from at the beginning of the day, and X spells to choose from at the end of the day (not 1 or 2). The wizard prepares about the same number give or take and ends up with less choices later. After a while he burns through his highest level spells, but even then he has many more options left. Most people playing wizards are too lazy to scry enemies and swap their spell lists frequently, so that advantage usually disappears. So, yeah, basically it comes down to how crazy are you willing to get with your planning?
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-11-11 at 01:03 PM.
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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Wizards are more powerful because they have faster access to new spell levels, know more different spells, get bonus feats, get more skill points.

    And a specialist wizard isn't even far behind a sorcerer in spells per day. A focused specialist might actually get more.

    Wizards, however, have the added busywork of picking spells to memorize. If this bothers you, play a sorcerer.

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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Think of Wizards as Batman; Crazy Prepared is their mantra. Most Sorcerers are entirely combat focused, while a wizard has out of combat utility spells like Knock that the Sorcerer would be wasting space getting.

    Sorcerers are a ton easier to play though; you don't have to swap spells in and out, you simply cast what you need when you need it.

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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    I'm asking because I want to specialize in Battlefield Control, and cannot choose between the two. Admittedly, Sorcerer-Mailman seems good, but Sorcerer's lack of class features worries me.

    Wizard, while being a metamagic machine, has to prepare spells daily, thus leaving him venerable when a fight doesn't go entirely as planned. So you prepared Fly, the ceiling is only 10ft high, and that ogre looks hungry...


    Books-wise, almost all books from all settings, minus Minis Handbook (which I don't think supports Wiz/Sorc Anyway), are available to my grubby fingers
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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Wizard is the better class, overall.

    Sorceror can be cheesed to greater extremes (Loredrake Kobold w/Greater Draconic Right of Passage means you can be a Sorceror 6 with casting as a Sorceror 9).

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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    I've played at least 2 battlefield control sorcerers and I love them. Picking among a dozen spells to get the best control for the job is TONS of fun. That said these boards think of wizards as being battlefield control for some reason. If you want to find new and creative ways to use the same spells (but with 15 different options all day long) I'd go sorcerer. If you want the kind of crazy-preparedness where you swap out control for new control to best fit the challenge which you scried on ahead of time, I'd go wizard. For both classes I'd grab scrolls for low level utility stuff to be prepared for any random unexpected thing imaginable.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-11-11 at 01:38 PM.
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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokuhara View Post
    I'm asking because I want to specialize in Battlefield Control
    A Sorcerer is okay for battlefield control, because you don't need that many different spells. In order of levels, look at things like Grease, Color Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement, Glitterdust, Web, Slow, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, Wall of Force - you have pretty much something for everyone.

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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    I'm also thinking of Multiclassing (I know, DON'T DO IT), but I'm thinking smart here:

    Since wizard gets essentially EVERY spell in D&D 3.5 somehow, but sorcerer gets some better longevity (fewer known, but more per day), Which is better for a Spellthief-type who is BfC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anecronwashere View Post
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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    As everybody else said, Wizard is strictly better then a sorcerer though the sorcerer still can be a formidable combatant, he is, after all, a tier 2 so he's almost but not quite wizard level. It however really depends on the campaign and how generous your DM is with scrolls. If he/she's the kind to have magic marts in every town or include scrolls in most loot then the wizard is strictly better. However, if they are stingy with scrolls then you may want to play a sorcerer instead. While Wizards have far more potential power then a sorcerer a sorcerer may be better then a wizard if you will not be finding scrolls.

    Simply think of both of them as stocks and the DM being the stock market. The wizard is essentially a high-risk, high-reward stock. If you know that the market is doing good aka your DM is generous with scrolls, spellbooks ect..then a wizard is definitely worth it. However if you know it's not the "right market" for a wizard aka your DM is known to be stingy with the spells or sporadic/random in how generous he/she is with spells then the sorcerer, while having less potential power then a wizard, is a "safer" choice because it's power is not highly depended on how generous or stingy the DM is.
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2010-11-11 at 01:42 PM.
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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokuhara View Post
    I'm also thinking of Multiclassing (I know, DON'T DO IT), but I'm thinking smart here:

    Since wizard gets essentially EVERY spell in D&D 3.5 somehow, but sorcerer gets some better longevity (fewer known, but more per day), Which is better for a Spellthief-type who is BfC
    Ya builds which tend to use the same spells tend to be better off with sorcerer. If you go wizard figure out how to take advantage of swapping or don't bother. I mean you get about as many prepared spells as a sorcerer. Actually more, but not as high level. A blaster spell-thief will benefit from having a higher level metamagic-tweaked spell on half the levels, but you say you're not doing sneak attacked blasty rays?
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-11-11 at 01:42 PM.
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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Even if your DM is planning on being stingy with scrolls, collegiate wizard will give you more than enough spells to compensate and you'll still be above your sorcerer counterpart.
    BEEP.

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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Maho-Tsukai View Post
    As everybody else said, Wizard is strictly better then a sorcerer though the sorcerer still can be a formidable combatant, he is, after all a Tier 2 so he's almost but not quite wizard level. It however really depends on the campaign and how generous your DM is with scrolls. If he/she's the kind to have magic marts in every town or include scrolls in most loot then the wizard is strictly better. However, if they are stingy with scrolls then you may want to play a sorcerer instead. While Wizards have far more potential power then a sorcerer a sorcerer may be better then a wizard if you will not be finding scrolls.

    Simply think of both of them as stocks and the DM being the stock market. The wizard is essentially a high-risk, high-reward stock. If you know that the market is doing good aka your DM is generous with scrolls, spellbooks ect..then a wizard is definitely worth it. However if you know it's not the "right market" for a wizard aka your DM is known to be stingy with the spells or sporadic/random in how generous he/she is with spells then the sorcerer, while having less potential power then a wizard, is a "safer" choice because it's power is not highly depended on how generous or stingy the DM is.
    My DM never hands out scrolls or spellbooks, but we fight wizards kinda often, usually one per dungeon. He's VERY formula-based. He claims that there's a formula to "The Perfect Dungeon," and part of it is one Wizard/Dungeon, so we don't get oodles of scrolls and spellbooks we have no clue what to do with.
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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    I see. In that case you may want to check out a sorcerer. However, 1 wizard per dungon may not be THAT stingy provided he stocks their spellbooks with useful spells so a wizard may still be viable depending on A) How many dungeons you frequent and B) If your DM gives the 1 wizard per dungeon a healthy amount of spells and/or spells that are actually good.

    Also, I have a question for Kylarra. What the heck is a collegiate wizard? Is it an ACF? Variant class? I ask because I have played a lot of wizards and never once have I seen that term so I would really like to know what a collegiate wizard is...
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2010-11-11 at 01:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Well, if it's rogue-ish casting you want, wizard is the way to go because you'll need Int anyway. (And lower spells/day won't be an issue - you can grab a crossbow, wand or reserve feat to sneak attack with.)

    Your standard Wiz/Rogue/Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper build is the way to go here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maho-Tsukai View Post
    Also, I have a question for Kylarra. What the heck is a collegiate wizard? Is it an ACF? Variant class? I ask because I have played a lot of wizards and never once have I seen that term so I would really like to know what a collegiate wizard is...
    Collegiate Wizard is described here Sorry I couldn't resist, check Complete Arcane
    Last edited by Psyren; 2010-11-11 at 01:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Maho-Tsukai View Post
    Also, I have a question for Kylarra. What the heck is a collegiate wizard? Is it an ACF? Variant class? I ask because I have played a lot of wizards and never once have I seen that term so I would really like to know what a collegiate wizard is...
    It's a feat in CArc. Basically doubles the base spells you learn, so 6+int 1st level spells at first level and then 4/lvl thereafter.
    BEEP.

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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    When a Sorcerer blooms into 6th level spells, I personally think that sorcerers have much better spell output than Wizards do. Arcane Spellsurge + Residual Metamagic is BRUTAL for pumping out vast quanities of very effective spells in VERY short order.

    Me? I like a mostly BF control Sorcerer who uses Fell Draining as his kill mechanism. You can get a lot of mileage out of Fell Draining Sonic Snap and Fell Draining Magic Missile, and some debuffs like Slow or Glitterdust and buffs like Haste are good in nearly EVERY situation.
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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    I was thinking actually taking Spellthief and using Sorcerer's CHA synergy, but Wizard does have more spells...
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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokuhara View Post
    I was thinking actually taking Spellthief and using Sorcerer's CHA synergy, but Wizard does have more spells...
    Spellthief is doable but you're honestly better off with rogue. You'll have a ton of Int anyways going Wizard and you'll get huge mileage out of it with 8+Int skills (x4 at level 1.)

    Spellthief has the advantage of ignoring ASF in light armor on your sorc spells (if you take Master Spellthief) but that is a minor benefit at best and represents a feat tax.

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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Thanks for the info, Kylarra. I will have to look at my copy CArc again. I have so many pdfs(Including numerous 3rd party books) for 3.5e that I forget half of the content in them.
    Last edited by Maho-Tsukai; 2010-11-11 at 02:05 PM.
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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    I have to say one thing RE sorc that wizard can't really duplicate (I know, this is going to turn into a flame war)
    And ists ease of metamagic. Maybe its just becasue I'm a caster-noob, but I find it much easier to metamagic with sorcs. sure, you don't get to move, but you can choose whichever you need for the moment. The only drawback is no quicken.

    So for a battle field control wiz/sorc, sorc will be able to maximize/extend/still (in case someone restricts your phsyical movement, or what have you whichever spell needs it). Not saying this makes sorc a clear winner, just it is an advantage that the wizard does not have

    also, don't forget that you can scribe your own scrolls for those corner-case spells, like immunity to dungeon stench
    This makes it easier to know which spells to prep for the day

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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokuhara View Post
    Sorcerer's lack of class features worries me.
    Think of this as a feature -- sorcerer doesn't hurt at all to PRC out of. Just make sure you swap your familiar for rapid metamagic.
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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Maho-Tsukai View Post
    Thanks for the info, Kylarra. I will have to look at my copy CArc again. I have so many pdfs(Including numerous 3rd party books) for 3.5e that I forget half of the content in them.
    It's on pg 181... next to precocious apprentice, the real cheese feat.
    BEEP.

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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Spellthief is doable but you're honestly better off with rogue. You'll have a ton of Int anyways going Wizard and you'll get huge mileage out of it with 8+Int skills (x4 at level 1.)

    Spellthief has the advantage of ignoring ASF in light armor on your sorc spells (if you take Master Spellthief) but that is a minor benefit at best and represents a feat tax.
    Plus, I can steal spells from Wizards/Sorcerers/Whathaveyou that my DM decides to throw at me, and if I go Daggerspell Mage, I can simply hit home with a Wings of Flurry Invoked through the Knife. With an Improved Feint/BfC spell, they are flat-footed... My assassin friend's new best buddy...
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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    It depends upon what type of spells you want: but you ought to have a look at Rogue/Beguiler. If the spell list is good for you then you will not be short of skill points.

    Scout/Wizard or Scout/Sorceror are interesting options, but only if you want to play a ray focussed caster.
    1 level of scout for +1d6 damage
    5 levels of scout & Improved Skirmish for +4d6 damage.
    The best rays are the ones which don't do damage however, still 1d3+4d6 for a cantrip is fun, and some of the reserve feats are also hilarious - how to be a warlock without being one.

    Wizards are more powerful, but require more work in play.

    Sorcerors require more homework - as you must plan out your spell choices several levels ahead, or get stuck with some bad choices.

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    Keld Denar's Avatar

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    Default Re: Tough Choice: Wizard vs Sorcerer <3.5>

    Scout can get you into Unseen Seer as well. Unfortunately, there is no skirmish equivalent to Hunter's Eye, the spell USS's use to spike their SA damage which makes Rogue or Spellthief a much more attractive goal.

    Also, Whirling Blade (CArc, reprinted in SpC) and Cloud of Knives (PHBII) are GREAT spells for either a skirmishing or SAing character. CoK is a free attack every round (which if you make after you move, gets skimish) and Whirling Blade can attack multiple targets but isn't a "volley" type attack and thus can apply skimish damage to all targets. Combine with Staggering Strike and you can kite foes around while wearing them down.
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