[3.5] Legality (and repercussions) of the Healstick?

[tuesdayscoming]

So one player that I regularly DM for has always insisted on my letting him create a 'healstick' – that is, a rod or similar object capable of casting Cure Light (or even Minor) Wounds at will.

The item would never be used for combat, but would let the players heal up after combat, provided they were willing to spend the requisite time repeatedly using the spell.

As we usually play in high-arcane settings, the real resource the players need to conserve is spells/day, and I've found that allowing the stick to fill those tasty hps back to the brim isn't necessarily a game breaker.

If you think about it as a video-game style 'auto-heal', it does detract from the 'realism' of the setting. Even keeping in mind that it's an item, if these exist then why doesn't every adventuring party in the setting (npcs included) carry them around? So maybe, if one were to allow such an item, perhaps it would be best to treat the thing as an item of some profound rarity? A micro-artifact?

Additionally, can you think of circumstances in which an item would break the game? A particular build, perhaps, that could take unfair advantage of the refill?

Thoughts?

[TroubleBrewing]

These are all valid questions, but they overly complicate the issue.

Let the players have it, but let them know that if they abuse it, you will take it away from them. What that means is up to you, whether it means the item simply stops working, it gets stolen, other groups start having them, it begins to malfunction in some suitably amusing/terrifying way, etc.

[Ashram]

So, it's an infinite wand of CMW? (Or CLW.) Not really that busted in the case of CMW, but most infinite wands can only be used a certain number of times a day. (Like, two.) Unless you want to make it a legitimately infinite charged wand.

I'd treat it as an exceptionally rare item, but not artifact level.

As far as game-breaking, not really. Each casting a couple seconds, possibly more if there isn't a cleric or UMD monkey around.

[Flarp]

I once played in a game where Orisons/Cantrips were at-will, leading to the same situation - it worked out just fine, and actually enabled our DM to have longer, more complex encounter areas earlier on, as opposed to most 1-5 dungeons, which need a rest spot after every encounter.

[Arbitrarity]

There are a fair number of unlimited heals, but the default game assumption is to try and prevent such things from occuring, and make HP a daily/item limited resource. See Belt of Healing, Cleric spells, etc.
"unlimited" sources of healing include Persisted Mass Lesser Vigor, Buer, any fast healing/regeneration (which are rare for PC's), Tomb Tainted Soul shenanigans, abusing Shadow Sun Ninja, etc.
Also, see the Healing Guide

Consider pricing (or placing in setting value terms) such an item at having a 1/day Persisted Lesser Vigor, or around 65200 gold, which is sufficiently expensive that not all parties would find it worthwhile to get one. Particularly since that's the value of over 80 healing belts, which provides 480d8 of healing that's usable on shorter notice, which probably covers a day's adventuring.
The lack of healing during combat balances out to allowing a slightly faster regen rate, imo, so you might look at around 20 hp/minute for the entire party.

[Keld Denar]

All it means is that eac encounter is started at full HP. There are other resources you can tax them on.

[Kuma Kode]

That is actually the best part of the recharge variant from Unearthed Arcana. The players always start with full resources, so they can take on more powerful monsters and need not retreat to town after every few battles, which can ruin the mood.

I don't see much of a problem with that, and the higher cure spells still have utility as emergency healing during combat.

[Boci]

abusing Shadow Sun Ninja, etc.

Huh? How do you abuse the SSN's infinite healing? Surely you're just using it as it was intended.

[faceroll]

A wand of lesser vigor costs 750 gp (half that to make) and heals 550hp. At that price, it's pretty much unlimited healing.

Persisted mass lesser vigor heals everyone all day.

The Crusader gets unlimited healing with some of his strikes/auras.

The Hellbreaker gets unlimited healing.

[Akal Saris]

I've allowed infinite Cure Minor Wounds for 13K gold before, but I'm not a big fan of the infinite healing. I've found that even at the highest level game that I currently run, 14th level, making PCs spend money on healing and rolling each 1d8+1 gives them a definite sense of losing resources, even if 750g is really nothing by that point. It also lets the one PC with fast healing 1 feel good about her character

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make it a teddy bear which casts Cure Minor Wounds on you whenever you hug it. It's a standard action that provokes AoOs, so not much use in combat and takes a *lot* of time to top off the whole party outside of combat.

[Coidzor]

If you think about it as a video-game style 'auto-heal', it does detract from the 'realism' of the setting.

You're in a high-arcane setting, there's no realism to detract from. You're in a high-arcane setting, meaning people are more likely to make items that can dispense as much healing as needed.

If you couch it in the terms of "this is a video-game," then, yes, you will think of it as a video game mechanic. There is nothing about it in and of itself that obligates one to approach it in that manner though.

Even keeping in mind that it's an item, if these exist then why doesn't every adventuring party in the setting (npcs included) carry them around?

Because you as the DM said that it was that way. As far as the designers, if they make a unique magic item, they usually do something more interesting than infinite but slow healing, especially since NPCs are meant to either be overcome in the first encounter or to be encountered later on such that they wouldn't have had time to heal or would have had plenty of time to have healed it through more mundane means.

Infinite healing is useful but boring, and it is not invulnerability as it requires a fair period of time in which to work. That, and attempting to use a level-appropriate healing spell in combat (before heal) is generally going to be a net loss versus what damage a level-appropriate foe can dish out. So something like lesser vigor which is an out of combat healing spell anyway wouldn't be a good choice of actions in combat except for in cases of needing to stabilize something or someone before returning to the fight.

So maybe, if one were to allow such an item, perhaps it would be best to treat the thing as an item of some profound rarity? A micro-artifact?

If you want. I would recommend against cutting heavily into their wealth with it, as it really doesn't contribute much to their character's power level when compared to the 750 gp wands which are trivial to pay for out of party loot after low levels.

[Arbitrarity]

Huh? How do you abuse the SSN's infinite healing? Surely you're just using it as it was intended.

I always assumed "using as intended" meant "in combat, hit your opponent, heal yourself". I didn't assume it meant "get someone with Tomb Tainted Soul (or who is undead) and heal them with the negative energy, then heal yourself with positive"

[Iku Rex]

The main problem with infinite healing is not "power" for adventuring purposes. The problem can be that unless it's really expensive you can sell access to it for very little money. In a setting where such items exist everyone and their destitute grandmother will be able to drop by the local healing dispenser if they suffer damage (that can be healed by CLW). Which should have noticable effects on society.

[VirOath]

Make it a teddy bear which casts Cure Minor Wounds on you whenever you hug it. It's a standard action that provokes AoOs, so not much use in combat and takes a *lot* of time to top off the whole party outside of combat.

And brings some funny images to mind

[faceroll]

I use a couple healing tricks to keep my party topped off on hp between battles, and we still almost die to monsters. Our DM is really old school, so he was really resistant to it at first, and had totally overwhelming encounters, but then he realized fast healing 1 on the whole party means we don't have to spend 3 weeks clearing a dungeon out or whatever.

[Mark Hall]

The main thing to keep in mind with such an item is that, if they are possible, they'll be used by others, too. A "bead of healing" (Cure Minor Wounds, command word, unlimited use, no space limitation) is going to run about 1800gp. That's expensive, but not unreasonable for the well-to-do to have as part of their survival gear.

If you want that in the game, then I don't see a particular problem with it. The main thing you will want to do is establish how long it takes to heal using this method... you may have the party occasionally surprised mid-heal, or the like, since they're going to have to sit around for a little bit and heal. If they have all the time in the world, so do the bad guys.

[Iku Rex]

A "bead of healing" (Cure Minor Wounds, command word, unlimited use, no space limitation) is going to run about 1800gp.

That seems too cheap. Which means you're not pricing it correctly.

[senrath]

That seems too cheap. Which means you're not pricing it correctly.

That's the price you get if you use the guidelines. While any individual DM is well within their rights to change that price, that's what the DMG recommends.

0.5 (0th level spell) * 1 (caster level) * 1,800 (Command Word Item) * 2 (No slot)

[Mark Hall]

That seems too cheap. Which means you're not pricing it correctly.

Cure minor wounds (0th level, so .5), cast at 1st level (1), times 1800 (command word activation). That gets you a cost of 900. Multiply it by 2 because it doesn't have a space limitation, and you have a total cost of 1800gp.

Per the tables in the DMG/SRD.

[Terumitsu]

In a similar but likely less than liked move, one can pay 200 gold more for a continuous effect of cure minor wounds to effectively get regeneration. String a few pearls of such as a necklace and you've got a team who pretty much has constant healing at a pretty good rate. Good for mid-level parties. I don't mind if my players do that, at least. It means I can throw some slightly meaner stuff at them and good times are had by all.

[Iku Rex]

..., that's what the DMG recommends.

No it doesn't.

The DMG (282) states that "many factors must be considered", and suggests comparing a proposed item to existing items. Should that fail it offers guidelines for estimating the value of an item.

The Magic item Compendium (233) further emphasizes the importance of using your own judgement when pricing new magic items.

If you price an item solely based on the table in the DMG you're doing it wrong according to RAW.

[Boci]

Cure minor wounds (0th level, so .5), cast at 1st level (1), times 1800 (command word activation). That gets you a cost of 900. Multiply it by 2 because it doesn't have a space limitation, and you have a total cost of 1800gp.

Per the tables in the DMG/SRD.

Yeah, that sounds about right. Its useless in combat, is so slow it may very well be too slow for between combat in certain situations (especially with shorter duration buffs), and its expensive enough that smaller settlements may not have it.

[senrath]

No it doesn't.

The DMG (282) states that "many factors must be considered", and suggests comparing a proposed item to existing items. Should that fail it offers guidelines for estimating the value of an item.

The Magic item Compendium (233) further emphasizes the importance of using your own judgement when pricing new magic items.

If you price an item solely based on the table in the DMG you're doing it wrong according to RAW.

First, no, we're not "doing it wrong". There is nothing in RAW that says "If you use this table, you're doing the wrong thing". It's up to the DM to price things how they see fit.

Which brings me to my second point: We're not the DM in question. We can only offer suggestions, and around here we generally turn to the source material for help. That's what we did. And you coming in and saying "It seems too cheap, therefore you must be doing it wrong" is not constructive in the slightest.

Thirdly: It's an item that heals you at a rate of 1 point per 6 seconds, assuming you can devote your standard action to it each round. In combat that's not going to be good for anything except maybe stabilizing someone, and out of combat there are much more cost effective (and faster) ways of healing.

[Mark Hall]

In a similar but likely less than liked move, one can pay 200 gold more for a continuous effect of cure minor wounds to effectively get regeneration. String a few pearls of such as a necklace and you've got a team who pretty much has constant healing at a pretty good rate. Good for mid-level parties. I don't mind if my players do that, at least. It means I can throw some slightly meaner stuff at them and good times are had by all.

I probably would not allow that with Cure Minor Wounds; continuous, to me, means there is a duration of other than Instant, and the table implies this, as well, with its notation about spell durations on continuous items. A Continuous Lesser Vigor would do the job, but then you're looking at 16000gp (1st level spell * 1st level caster * 2000gp * 4 for duration measured in rounds * 2 for no space limitation). Definitely worth it... but not the 1800 you can pay for a koosh-ball of healing.

[Terumitsu]

I probably would not allow that with Cure Minor Wounds; continuous, to me, means there is a duration of other than Instant, and the table implies this, as well, with its notation about spell durations on continuous items. A Continuous Lesser Vigor would do the job, but then you're looking at 16000gp (1st level spell * 1st level caster * 2000gp * 4 for duration measured in rounds * 2 for no space limitation). Definitely worth it... but not the 1800 you can pay for a koosh-ball of healing.

Perfectly understandable. I generally limit it to a max of three on a string which makes it a total of 6000gp and 'regen' 3... But when one factors in damage taken to how much it heals, it's more of just a slight buffer than anything. I personally haven't had any troubles from my players due to it so I guess it's just a difference of style there. Although, I will think on your suggestion there as it does sound quite nifty.

[FelixG]

If you price an item solely based on the table in the DMG you're doing it wrong according to RAW.

As RAW is rules as written, and there is no rules written concerning the extra stuff that it is based on...using that to price new magic items isnt doing it wrong by Raw...Nice try though!

Also I just looked on the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicitems...magicitems.htm

Things like 0 level spells, skill restrictions, class/feature restrictions are some of the things that it says you have to take into account

it goes on to say its a judgment call, things like staffs, potions and scrolls are made fairly as needed by their creations, other things require judgment calls.

[Iku Rex]

First, no, we're not "doing it wrong". There is nothing in RAW that says "If you use this table, you're doing the wrong thing". It's up to the DM to price things how they see fit.

RAW says that DMs must use their own judgement and offers several suggestions to help them estimate the proper price of an item.

You're claiming that items should be priced solely based on the table in the DMG, with no need for DM judgement. This is contrary to the RAW. Plain and simple.

Which brings me to my second point: We're not the DM in question. We can only offer suggestions, and around here we generally turn to the source material for help. That's what we did. And you coming in and saying "It seems too cheap, therefore you must be doing it wrong" is not constructive in the slightest.

Mark Hall clearly wasn't making a carefully considered judgement call for his own personal campaign. I think you know that.

You're not doing it wrong by having a different subjective opinion about the price of a magic item, you're doing it wrong (according to RAW) by, like I said, pricing an item solely based on the DMG table.

Thirdly: It's an item that heals you at a rate of 1 point per 6 seconds, assuming you can devote your standard action to it each round. In combat that's not going to be good for anything except maybe stabilizing someone, and out of combat there are much more cost effective (and faster) ways of healing.

You don't think such an item will be at all popular among players/PCs?

[Iku Rex]

As RAW is rules as written, and there is no rules written concerning the extra stuff that it is based on...using that to price new magic items isnt doing it wrong by Raw...Nice try though!

"no rules written concerning the extra stuff that it is based on"...? What are you talking about? What "extra stuff"?`

[senrath]

RAW says that DMs must use their own judgement and offers several suggestions to help them estimate the proper price of an item.

You're claiming that items should be priced solely based on the table in the DMG, with no need for DM judgement. This is contrary to the RAW. Plain and simple.

Um, no, I'm not. I said that the DM was free to price the item however he (or she) felt like. It's literally the second line in my first post.

Mark Hall clearly wasn't making a carefully considered judgement call for his own personal campaign. I think you know that.

You're not doing it wrong by having a different subjective opinion about the price of a magic item, you're doing it wrong (according to RAW) by, like I said, pricing an item solely based on the DMG table.

There's a huge difference between saying "my opinion is different than yours, so you must be doing it wrong" and "my opinion is different than yours, and here's why". The latter is constructive, the former isn't.

You don't think such an item will be at all popular among players/PCs?

I never said that. I just said that there are other options that are better than it, so I don't see where the problem is.