Help optimize: Rogue+Warlock

[lost_my_NHL]

GITPers,

I made a character for an Ebberon campaign that was a Changeling Rogue/Warlock. I noticed how well the mechanics seemed to work as I was building the character (i.e. darkness + devil's sight). Unfortunately, I realized that darkness doesn't make complete darkness, just shadowy illumination (so no automatic sneak attacks). Other than that, there were some invocations that seemed to mesh well. Certainly, the Deceive Item (take 10 on UMD checks even when hurried or threatened) is useful for a rogue. Eventually, being able to use Invisibility at will is great for a rogue.

So I asked on these forums about ranged feints so that I could get sneak attack damage, but didn't find some great stuff (bow feint requires you to hold a ranged weapon; I considered carrying around a useless hand crossbow to fulfill the requirements). I did find some cool feats in Drow of the Underdark, which allowed me to
a) see in magical darkness (like devil's sight, but a feat not an invocation)
b) hide in plain sight when near shadowy illumination as a swift action
c) get +5 Hide bonus when near shadowy illumination
d) cast darkness as an immediate action
e) change darkness to deeper darkness
(b) alone amounts to the same as I thought darkness would originally give me. I chose to take (c) and (d) as well. The only drawback is you lose the ability to move at full speed during a turn (if you want full hide bonus).

I've been thinking about it, and I might want to take the assassin class next (I'm rogue 3, warlock 3 right now). Being able to get death attacks in the middle of battle seems pretty cool.

What else do you see out there that could help optimize this combination?
Is it worth taking the feat to see in magical darkness, vice the invocation?

[Hawk7915]

The traditional way to go is just Warlock 1/Rogue stuff X. Assassin is better here. Dip Warlock for the at-will 1d6 ranged touch attack and a few invocations, then create a standard thief character.

If you like Warlock more, I'd skip Assassin. Death Attack isn't so great and the spellcasting makes you slightly MAD (you normally just need killer Dex, decent CHA and CON is nice); The only real benefit is access to "Sniper's Shot" and eventually Hide in Plain Sight, but you can have Sniper's from a wand and Invisibility at will from your own classes.

Regardless of style, make sure to snag "Craven" (Champions of Ruin) for +1 damage/level on Sneak Attacks. It makes you weak to fear, but "Dark One's Own Luck" (the invocation) and "Force of Personality" (feat from Complete Adventurer) with good Charisma can bump your will save so high that it doesn't matter.

A final option if you like the spellcasting sneaky thief demon guy idea is Beguiler 4/Warlock 3/Eldritch Theurge 10, which advances all your warlock and Beguiler powers, and lets you weave spells into your Eldritch Blast. Pretty cool stuff.

Hope that helps!

[Zaq]

Well, you've found Blend Into Shadows, so you've already got the biggest trick in your bag. The only real question now is whether you want to be primarily a rogue or primarily a warlock. I'd stick with one or the other (or try to finagle your way into something like Arcane Trickster, but I think that requires some minor shenanigans to get Mage Hand) instead of Assassin, really, since I don't think that Assassin would really give you anything worthwhile that you don't already have.

For the feat At Home in the Deep, you're better off taking Extra Invocation (Devil's Sight). Same effect, but doesn't require darkvision in the first place and works in ANY magical or mundane darkness.

[gorfnab]

Whisper Gnome Rogue 1/ Warlock 6/ Assassin 1/ Telfammar Shadowlord 6/ Arcane Trickster 6 - Basically a Shadowpouncer that utilizes Flee the Scene + Shadowpouncing. You'll end up 12 levels of Warlock advancement (6 warlock + 6 Arcane Trickster) and some okay sneak attack. Otherwise a good aligned character of any race can go Rogue 3/ Warlock 6/ Arcane Trickster 10/ Warlock 1 (or something +1 caster level like Mindbender) with the feat Spell Hand.

[Boci]

There's a feat called dead eye that allows you to target someone's flatfooted AC with a ranged attack if you ready an action to attack in conjunction with an ally. Requires +4 BAB, SA +1d6, PBS and precise shot. However, damage is going to be sub par if you're just attacking once per round.

[Jjeinn-tae]

Hmm, this looks oddly familiar. I'm probably not who you'd want to be asking optimization advice... but Eldritch Glaive or the other blast shapes that retain your ability to SA are very useful.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Whisper Gnome Rogue 1/ Warlock 6/ Assassin 1/ Telfammar Shadowlord 6/ Arcane Trickster 6 - Basically a Shadowpouncer that utilizes Flee the Scene + Shadowpouncing. You'll end up 12 levels of Warlock advancement (6 warlock + 6 Arcane Trickster) and some okay sneak attack. Otherwise a good aligned character of any race can go Rogue 3/ Warlock 6/ Arcane Trickster 10/ Warlock 1 (or something +1 caster level like Mindbender) with the feat Spell Hand.

IMHO asking for TSL, to advance casting instead of having it's own is a good idea, personally I don't think it would overpower a Warlock.

Also take note that Eldritch glaive is a full round action not a full round attack; and as such it can't be combined with Shadow Pounce.

[lost_my_NHL]

Where is Telfmar shadowlord from?

[Psyren]

Where is Telfmar shadowlord from?

Unapproachable East (FR sourcebook)

[Urpriest]

IMHO asking for TSL, to advance casting instead of having it's own is a good idea, personally I don't think it would overpower a Warlock.

It would prevent the character from getting Mage Hand, however, unless I'm misunderstanding the build.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Craven is a must-have to shore up damage output since you will have fewer sneak attack dice the more you go into warlock.

An interesting idea I once had contained Warlock, Rogue, Nosmiac Chirgeon, and Arcane Trickster. Also had a splash in Swordsage after level 10 to boost some necessary places.

Best way to run this would be:

Strongheart Halfling Rogue1/Warlock6/Nosmiac Chirgeon1/Arcane Tricksterx/Swordsage2/Arcane Trickster to finish.

From Swordsage, you gain the following:

Shadow Blade (dex to damage so you can dump Str, assuming you don't use EB as your primary weapon)
Assassin's Stance (+2d6 Sneak Attack damage)
Wis to AC (never bad to be harder to hit)
Concentration check to replace low Fort save
Island of Blades, assuming you can flank with Glaive
Pouncing Strike, if you don't use Glaive but TWF, depending on how far you delay SS
Setting Sun for defensive. Baffling Defense comes in very handy. Combine with a way to take a 5' step when opponent misses to effectively deny opponents a full attack evar.

[gorfnab]

It would prevent the character from getting Mage Hand, however, unless I'm misunderstanding the build.

Whisper Gnome has Mage Hand as an SLA. Otherwise you go with the feat Spell Hand.

[Jallorn]

If your DM will agree to a little alteration, then the Spellwarped Sniper is a great PRC for a Rogue/Warlock. Not technically viable under RAW though, since it requires spells of a certain level, but most DMs should be okay to change that a little to let the Warlock in.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

SWS's main bonus is to turn area spells into rays and get rid of the reflex save (the rest is just icing), which is somewhat moot for a warlock. More levels of Rogue are probably better for this build.

[Jjeinn-tae]

If your DM will agree to a little alteration, then the Spellwarped Sniper is a great PRC for a Rogue/Warlock. Not technically viable under RAW though, since it requires spells of a certain level, but most DMs should be okay to change that a little to let the Warlock in.

Hello, Aforementioned DM here. I'm rather lenient with these things in the name of cool builds or fluff, so if he has an invocation of effective level he could take it... What book is Spellwarped Sniper from again?

[gorfnab]

What book is Spellwarped Sniper from again?

Complete Scoundrel

[true_shinken]

My build Nekoya from Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo) was a Warlock with a few sneak attack dice. As mentioned, Craven helps a lot.
Stock up on eldritch blast damage increasers (chasuble of fell power, warlock's scepter) and sneak attack damage increasers (rogue vest, hunter's bracers). The build is here if you want more info. Also, check out my melee warlock handbook - I know you are doing a ranged character, but melee greatly favors a warlock's damage output.

[Psyren]

SWS's main bonus is to turn area spells into rays and get rid of the reflex save (the rest is just icing), which is somewhat moot for a warlock. More levels of Rogue are probably better for this build.

It actually has more benefits for a Warlock than that:

- 2/5 SA, 5/5 casting, allowing you to progress both SA and EB, as well as get more invocations
- free Precise Shot
- You can sneak attack from 60' away at the capstone

[true_shinken]

It actually has more benefits for a Warlock than that:

- 2/5 SA, 5/5 casting, allowing you to progress both SA and EB, as well as get more invocations
- free Precise Shot
- You can sneak attack from 60' away at the capstone

Also, Spellwarp Sniper could convert offensive invocations into rays, I believe. Warlocks do get a few of those.

[Boci]

Also, Spellwarp Sniper could convert offensive invocations into rays, I believe. Warlocks do get a few of those.

It only works on spells, but a reasonable DM (which appears to be the case here) will most likely exstend this SLA.

[T.G. Oskar]

An interesting idea I once had contained Warlock, Rogue, Nosmiac Chirgeon, and Arcane Trickster. Also had a splash in Swordsage after level 10 to boost some necessary places.

Best way to run this would be:

Strongheart Halfling Rogue1/Warlock6/Nosmiac Chirgeon1/Arcane Tricksterx/Swordsage2/Arcane Trickster to finish.

From Swordsage, you gain the following:

Shadow Blade (dex to damage so you can dump Str, assuming you don't use EB as your primary weapon)
Assassin's Stance (+2d6 Sneak Attack damage)
Wis to AC (never bad to be harder to hit)
Concentration check to replace low Fort save
Island of Blades, assuming you can flank with Glaive
Pouncing Strike, if you don't use Glaive but TWF, depending on how far you delay SS
Setting Sun for defensive. Baffling Defense comes in very handy. Combine with a way to take a 5' step when opponent misses to effectively deny opponents a full attack evar.

Not "Nosmiac", Nosomatic Chirurgeon. Which...is kinda odd, since it's essentially a healer that learns how to use diseases.

In any case, except for one way you could get it, only Lightfoot halflings (the "common" type of halfling) can take the Mark of Healing, so that means that under normal conditions, you couldn't be Strongheart and have the Mark of Healing. Unless you have succeeded on Eyes of the Lich Queen and got in contact with the Dragon's Eye, which grants you the ability to access the Least Mark of Healing as a Strongheart, but then again that would be an aberrant form of the Mark of Healing.
Also: I still have my doubts as to whether you can enter to Arcane Trickster with Warlock + Spell Hand. Certainly, the latter would somewhat qualify for Mage Hand entry (it's an SLA, hence you're capable of casting it), but not so sure about the specified type of entry (you need to cast at least one 3rd level arcane spell, while the Warlock forbids you from entering prestige classes that require a specific level of arcane spells; you can enter with a minimum arcane caster level or mere spellcasting ability, but not with specified spells or specified spell level). Though, it's arguably the best way to blend both aside from Spellwarp Sniper.

Thing is, there are few worthwhile invocations to get from the Warlock; Dispel and Invisibility are some of the good ones since you can use them constantly and repeatedly, perhaps the ones that grant you darkness, but there are a few invocations that are a bit trapped (namely, Fell Flight which while it's awesome being Fly at will, it lasts for 24 hours which means you only need to use it once per day...somewhat like a Persisted Fly spell). Eldritch Glaive and Vitriolic Blast are quite good (perhaps quite good), most of the essence invocations are kinda meh because of the trio of resistances, and you'd need to be quite lucky to get Eldritch Doom, which while it won't serve for purposes of your Eldritch + SA combo, it may work for an area-damage spell. Still, you might wanna get something like Brimstone Blast and Hellrime Blast to diversify your Eldritch Blast and take advantage of vulnerability (Eldritch Blast/Glaive will be considered Fire, Cold or Acid damage, Sneak Attack is also considered the same type of damage, so you'd be dealing quite a lot of damage if you learn to exploit vulnerabilities). So really, mostly Eldritch Glaive + Walk Unseen/Retributive Invisibility in order to always use Sneak Attack, then Hellrime, Brimstone or Vitriolic to diversify your damage, and perhaps Dispel tactics to take advantage of super-buffed creatures and allow your spells to land cleanly.

Hmm...thought check: might this work (considering the DM allows the Rogue/Warlock to enter Spellwarp Sniper)? Eldritch Glaive + Spellwarp, so you gain 2 or 3 Eldritch Blasts as a full-round action, potentially alongside Sneak Attack done while invisible (and by that moment, probably having Retributive Invisibility as well).

[Frenchy147]

Just have to say, I like the avatar. Go Devils!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not "Nosmiac", Nosomatic Chirurgeon. Which...is kinda odd, since it's essentially a healer that learns how to use diseases.

In any case, except for one way you could get it, only Lightfoot halflings (the "common" type of halfling) can take the Mark of Healing, so that means that under normal conditions, you couldn't be Strongheart and have the Mark of Healing. Unless you have succeeded on Eyes of the Lich Queen and got in contact with the Dragon's Eye, which grants you the ability to access the Least Mark of Healing as a Strongheart, but then again that would be an aberrant form of the Mark of Healing.

Not quite.

The prerequsite for the mark of haling is 'halfling', not specifically 'lightfoot halfling'. Strongheart halflings are, in fact, halflings, thus they can take the mark and get into the PrC.

Also: I still have my doubts as to whether you can enter to Arcane Trickster with Warlock + Spell Hand. Certainly, the latter would somewhat qualify for Mage Hand entry (it's an SLA, hence you're capable of casting it), but not so sure about the specified type of entry (you need to cast at least one 3rd level arcane spell, while the Warlock forbids you from entering prestige classes that require a specific level of arcane spells; you can enter with a minimum arcane caster level or mere spellcasting ability, but not with specified spells or specified spell level). Though, it's arguably the best way to blend both aside from Spellwarp Sniper.

The reason you get into NC is to be able to exchange them for casting Cause X Wounds spells, arcanely as it so happens, which are x level spells. That's how you get to qualify for PrC's that require that you cast x level spells. We're not using invocations to qualify, we're using the ability to spontaneously expend a use of a SLA (invocation, in this case) to be able to cast a cause x wound spell.

[Curmudgeon]

There's a feat called dead eye that allows you to target someone's flatfooted AC with a ranged attack if you ready an action to attack in conjunction with an ally. Requires +4 BAB, SA +1d6, PBS and precise shot.

You must be thinking of some different feat. Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium, page 95) lets you add your DEX bonus to ranged damage within 30'.

[T.G. Oskar]

Not quite.

The prerequsite for the mark of haling is 'halfling', not specifically 'lightfoot halfling'. Strongheart halflings are, in fact, halflings, thus they can take the mark and get into the PrC.

You'd do wise to read Player's Guide to Eberron then. I think that might qualify as "specific versus general". The general gist says that they are considered part of the dragonmark races, but "the bloodlines only manifest in the most common subraces".

Page 47. Go on, read it. It's not like, say, racial substitution levels; it's a pretty specific ruling, that one.

But again, there's a very contrived in-game way to get Least Mark of Healing; it just implies going through an adventure. It's at least less questionable, unlike, say, using Otyugh Hole to qualify for PrCs ;P

The reason you get into NC is to be able to exchange them for casting Cause X Wounds spells, arcanely as it so happens, which are x level spells. That's how you get to qualify for PrC's that require that you cast x level spells. We're not using invocations to qualify, we're using the ability to spontaneously expend a use of a SLA (invocation, in this case) to be able to cast a cause x wound spell.

That, on the other hand, is a pretty clever way to handle the problem, though still questionable. Mage Hand is not so questionable as it requires you to cast the spell, which you do (except that while not as a spell, you do as a spell-like ability). On the other hand, Inflict X Wounds isn't exactly cast as an arcane SLA; you cast it merely as an SLA, which may comply for both arcane or divine, and it's just as useful for entering Arcane Trickster as would an Artificer (whose infusions are neither arcane nor divine). But I can give the benefit of doubt on this particular entry; it just seems a bit contrived, if not quite effective (you can get a 6th level invocation and cast Mass Inflict Moderate Wounds, for example; an 8th level spell would allow Mass Cure Critical Wounds which affects anyone and would make a pretty useful at-will area attack, something which the Warlock lacks).

[Boci]

You must be thinking of some different feat. Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium, page 95) lets you add your DEX bonus to ranged damage within 30'.

You're right. The actual feat I was thinking of is Deadeye Shot from PHII.

[Angrist]

You could try "Unseen Seer" it advances spellcasting and sneak attack bonuses

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You could try "Unseen Seer" it advances spellcasting and sneak attack bonuses

Only it reduces effective caster level on anything non-divination. Which hurts, since Warlocks don't really get much divination stuff. And Warlocks can't even get into it because they don't get the ability to cast any divination spells. And it doesn't really give a Rogue/Warlock anything that the Arcane Trickster doesn't give better.

So, yea... not so much.